More Major immigration changes !!

[LivinLOS]

I figured a separate thread to highlight the unbelievably stupid way Immigration are interpreting the 180 day rules is needed. This has already happened to MajorTom and multiple people since the April 1st start of the 6 months after Oct 1st shakeup.

What immigration are now doing to some people is saying that the first time you entered Thailand After Oct 1st is the start of your 6 months. Even if you have less than 90 days inside the country, if you come back into Thailand just before 6 months later, then you will only get stamped in to a date that takes you to the end of your 6 month period.

In effect it would be possible under this way of processing to enter Thailand for a single day, come back to Thailand 6 months minus 1 day later and either denied entry or given a 1 day entry to Thailand.

Despite the insanity of this ruling, despite that the people this will really effect can be simple tourists on package tours, despite too many dumb things to mention. This seems to be the case of how some immigration officers are applying these rules.

So for now, anyone that came to Thailand in the Autumn, and is returning approx 6 months later, get a tourist visa before you come.. It rally looks like the immigration dept are making 30 day visa free arrivals really hard to work.

The next issue that has appeared in the last couple of days, is immigration now want to see proof of onward travel documents (air tickets) at land borders like they used to / sometimes do, at air check ins. Again another thing that makes border running much more awkward.

Immigration are really making this as tough as possible, and seemingly they dont seem to make any thought as to how this effects the genuine package tourists and holiday makers.. How many package tour people come twice a year ?? Can you imagine the shock and surprise when a family of 4 with thier hotel package booked get given 3 days entry instead of 14, and told to visa run with thier infants, or go get a tourist visa for a few days in Penang !!!! Insane !!

I cant imagine this implementation will last long, but for now I wouldnt risk it. Get a visa before coming if you were here 5 - 6 months ago !!

[Mav]

ok...good to know.......so if l came in Feb 1 and my next trip was July 1 to say July 18 l would be ok....but if l had planned to make it beyond August 1 that's where l may hit a snag.

[LivinLOS]

Thats whats happening in some places !! The problem is totally inconsistent and conflicting information..

Also what defines the 'start' of a 180 period for those that are in and out every month.. Will they be forever locked into six month periods in Oct and April for the rest of thier passport ?? (impossible to administer, finding the 'earliest' stamp in any passport and then checking each 6 month chunk) or will they have this problem ANY time they return 5 - 6 months after a previous visit (horrific for oil workers on rotation who simply cannot get a tourist visa while on a rig !!) in a rolling 6 month setup..

I cant see this interpretation sticking.. Its just too stupid for words.. But for the next few months people should make preparations if they dont want the risk.

Theres also big changes for parents of farang children. Before there was no overstay on children under a certain age.. So kids come in on a 30 day stamp and then simply overstay without penalty.. Now when they return to Thailand the overstay on the the 30 day visa free stamp is counted as part of thier 90 in 180 so the child can be refused entry to the country !! Expats with kids now need to prepare visas for thier children.. Presume schools will now have to prepare ED visa apps ?? Children doing visa runs to KL or Penang to get the initial ED's.. Nightmare..

So many ways that immigration has gone nuts lately.. You wonder what the Junta is thinking !!!

[boggler]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Can you imagine the shock and surprise when a family of 4 with thier hotel package booked get given 3 days entry instead of 14, and told to visa run with thier infants, or go get a tourist visa for a few days in Penang !!!! Insane !!

I cant imagine this implementation will last long, but for now I wouldnt risk it. Get a visa before coming if you were here 5 - 6 months ago !!

Prudent advice, forewarned is forearmed and all that but I do suspect these measure are more targeted at the visa-runners.
As you yourself say they are asking for proof of onward travel or return documents. Fair enough in my book, imagine a non EU national turning up at Heathrow with no onward travel documents or return ticket? ( actually thinking about it they'd probably be told to come on in and help themselves to any social services they feel would make their life more enjoyable!) Bad example but my point is that in most countries proof of onward travel is usually a requirement for entry just they don't usually check everyone especially European travellers. Even in the UK if you are on a tourist visa and say pop across to France more than a couple of times it's unlikely you'll be let back in. I worked in a language school before and this was a very common occurence.

In the above scenario a family of 4 with hotel bookings and return travel documents would be highly unlikely to be turned back. This is targeted at people popping across the border numerous times.

[LivinLOS]

However they have never in the past asked for air tickets at land borders.. The thinking being you can turn around and leave again overland. The very fac your arriving that way says so.

Also I have no problem with the rules.. The problem is the complete inconsistency, the fact the rules are written in gobbledegook that no one can understand or define exactly, that immigration officer 1 applies different rules and standards than immigration officer 2, that the potential to be stranded on a arrival to the country exists.

The fact that there are multiple, either new rules, or reinterpretations of old ones, all of which make it harder for foreign access, has to say that they either are doing this on purpose (Junta controlled ??) or are incredibly stupid as to what effects this will have on foreigners here in Thailand.

The sky isnt falling, this isnt here to panic anybody.. However these rules can effect even a casual tourist and so paying attention to the changes is wise.

[boggler]

Oh yeah, complete agree with that. Also whilst one would hope common sense prevails, the confusion can leave a lot of power in small hands i.e. the over-zealous immigration officer who decides to feel a bit powerful for the day
at your expense!

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

So many ways that immigration has gone nuts lately.. You wonder what the Junta is thinking !!!

I think this was pre-Junta. One of the last Taksin cover-your-ass moves before he was tossed. The Junta isn't doing much of anything and I doubt they even see the problem. They shoudl fix it, like you are saying, but they won't.

Yet another law that is ok when you half think about it. But if they thought into the implementation and enforcement it is a nightmare. These guys are too busy, underpaid and undermotivated to sit there and count days for each person passing through. So they are short cutting it. They were givin a no win situation and generally don't really care about the implications of lazy enforcement.

This would be easy to properly enforce if their computer systems were current. But that is rarely the case with anything in Thailand.

I'd say it has failed anyway. I know of some deadwood no-money guys that scrape together enough money to do a Penang 60 day tourist visa run and then enough money to do the 30 day visa run. Don't think it has effected any of the quasi-working bar owners. So whatever purpose it was to serve it hasn't.

[Robaht]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

So whatever purpose it was to serve it hasn't.

Well, one thing it has accomplished is that I have spent a bunch of money outside of Thailand going to get a Tourist Visa in Hong Kong -- money I would have otherwise spent in Thailand. Good plan, guys! Get the farangs to spend all their money in other countries so they don't come back!!! THAT will boost tourism! (somewhere)

Why oh why does the phrase, mind like a goldfish, spring to mind?

[K2]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Theres also big changes for parents of farang children. Before there was no overstay on children under a certain age.

That is up to age 14.

If you have a Thai partner just get the kids put on the taa bien baan then can get Thai passport and dont need to bother with immegration.

Getting kids put on taa bien baan however is no walk in the park .

On wider not this does seem very ill thought through - if they want to stop the casual worker then scrap the border run visa altogether and make everyone one apply for a tourist or relavent visa (I suppose would have to exempt Malay, Cambodian, Lao, Myanmar residents). Current workings as you have pointed out are far from transparent or even acheiving the desired goals.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

I think this was pre-Junta. One of the last Taksin cover-your-ass moves before he was tossed. The Junta isn't doing much of anything and I doubt they even see the problem. They should fix it, like you are saying, but they won't.

I dont see how that argument can be made.. Yes the initial 90 day visa free stamp rules came in so soon after the Junta Sept 19th that it was possible to blame it on the previous administration..

However the issues that have started now in April or last few months are

1) counting 'overstay' as visa free time (part of the 90 in 180) on children..

2) Counting blocks of time instead of rolling 180 / 6 months, massive implications to many.

3) Stopping of any multiple non immigrant visa's (B or O) from local SE Asian consuls.

4) A whole slew of new headaches for getting a non B visa if the company is new, combines with a lack of multiple non imm B's being issued makes a catch 22 for a guy who makes a new company to get a B Visa.

5) No more multiple (2 3 or 4) entry tourist visas from local SEA consuls. Some consuls (Laos) even stamping passports 'Last tourist visa' and refusing to issue more.

5) Retirement money in bank 3 months prior, some immigration have claimed it should stay in all year.

6) No more 400k for married couples, they must have 40k income, cannot be savings.

7) No more special investor visa's for 3 million / 10 million investment. No more condo ownership visa.

Thats just the ones off the top of my head in the last few months.. I cannot think of a single 'positive' immigration ruling for farangs in that time..

You cant blame all that on the Thaksin boogyman.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by K2

That is up to age 14.

If you have a Thai partner just get the kids put on the taa bien baan then can get Thai passport and dont need to bother with immegration.

Getting kids put on taa bien baan however is no walk in the park .

On wider not this does seem very ill thought through - if they want to stop the casual worker then scrap the border run visa altogether and make everyone one apply for a tourist or relavent visa (I suppose would have to exempt Malay, Cambodian, Lao, Myanmar residents). Current workings as you have pointed out are far from transparent or even acheiving the desired goals.

Possible IF you have a Thai partner and the children are part Thai.. Now how about if you and your farang (or Laos, or PI etc) wife live here ??

Lots of expat families are here on work packages.. Someone posted on TV that you cannot get a dependants visa for someone under 7 (seems odd to me.. surely thats when they are most dependant).. So what then for your child ?? If to young for school then too young for ED also ??? I personally dont know about this under 7 thing.. Strikes me as very catch 22.

[K2]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Possible IF you have a Thai partner and the children are part Thai.. Now how about if you and your farang (or Laos, or PI etc) wife live here ??

Lots of expat families are here on work packages.. Someone posted on TV that you cannot get a dependants visa for someone under 7 (seems odd to me.. surely thats when they are most dependant).. So what then for your child ?? If to young for school then too young for ED also ??? I personally dont know about this under 7 thing.. Strikes me as very catch 22.

My friend has kids <7 and has not had problems so far - kindergarten will issue papers necessary for EV from age 4. Seems daft not to issue dependent visa for this age group and not heard that as a problem so far.

Of course for those with non-part Thai kids this is a harder problem to solve ... good summing up of steps taken so far in your earlier post. None so far been constructive - just making more hoops to jump through ... at the end of the day with all this nonsense temptation must be for those 'lower end long stayers' to drop of the radar altogether.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by K2

at the end of the day with all this nonsense temptation must be for those 'lower end long stayers' to drop of the radar altogether.

You think so ??? Really I think the 'lower end long stayer' are the kind that dig in and always find a way round the rules.

The kind of guys getting 20k to work as a bar manager / rent a liver.. Or have the small scale scams.. Small unregistered business angles.. They are the ones who really will be the last to give up..

Any inconvenience or difficulty at all and the 'quality tourist' wont return.. They want things made simple and smooth.. The low end guy will put up with sitting on a bus to Penang every couple of months begging for a new tourist visa, the rich will not want their plans altered or themselves inconvenienced.

[midnightsun1]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

You wonder what the Junta is thinking !!!

Let me know when they do think intelligently....

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

I dont see how that argument can be made.. Yes the initial 90 day visa free stamp rules came in so soon after the Junta Sept 19th that it was possible to blame it on the previous administration..

However the issues that have started now in April or last few months are

I was before the coup. I know because the changes to the tourist visa was announce right before. Prompted me to update my visa because I could feel what was coming. Got it done just 1 day before the coupe.

Either way, the who "control the foreigners" ball was rolling at the end of Taksin's regime and just kept rolling. Seems just now the temp government is starting to reign the bureaucrats in on some points.

Totally agree that the bizarreness has kicked up a notch recently. Again, I think that is due to coming up with yet another bizarre unenforceable law/rule and then leaving it to a 6000 baht/month lackee to figure it out on the job. BKK does some hand waving and everyone is left to figure out what it means and what to do. I'd imagine we'll keep seeing more bizarre stuff until someone get's this ministry under control. But it will take it all circling back to rich thais loosing money for that to happen.

[Esco]

Ok let me get this straight.. I came january 27th and stayed for three weeks.. Now I'm returning June 18th and will stay until July 6th... Do I have to apply for a tourist visa in Holland now or am I good to go??

[Captain]

I was in Thailand for 3 weeks November last year. No visa.
I came back for 2 weeks Feb/March this year. No visa. No problem at immigration. Asked on departure if I needed a visa for my 3 weeks stay in May. Answer was negative.
Will ask again in consulate in Brussels/Antwerp.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by kheemao

Ok let me get this straight.. I came january 27th and stayed for three weeks.. Now I'm returning June 18th and will stay until July 6th... Do I have to apply for a tourist visa in Holland now or am I good to go??

Jan 27th would mean your 6 month then hits on July 27.. Would seem to indicate your ok even under this bizarre thinking..

Originally Posted by Captain

I was in Thailand for 3 weeks November last year. No visa.
I came back for 2 weeks Feb/March this year. No visa. No problem at immigration. Asked on departure if I needed a visa for my 3 weeks stay in May. Answer was negative.
Will ask again in consulate in Brussels/Antwerp.

This is more questionable November IS 6 months from May so IF they keep doing this and depending on your dates of arrival and planned duration of stay it is possible to run into this 6 month block problem.

Watch the forums and do not rely on what your home country embassy or consul says, they are not the ones who will be approving or denying your entry..

[Esco]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Jan 27th would mean your 6 month then hits on July 27.. Would seem to indicate your ok even under this bizarre thinking..

Ok thanks.. better not miss my flight this time 5555

[MajorTom]

Maybe they want a way to give you the boot if they dont like your face, without really saying it.

Answer: Make the rules so inconsistent and complicated they can be interpreted more ways than the bible.

Or it could just be they didnt think to hard when they made the rules, and/or misinformed/lazy immigration staff.

If its the last one i guess this will be dealt with as soon as the first "quality tourist" are held up.
Although Crustasian talked about some weekend golfers being turned around at the airport a little while ago.. Dont know that story completely, but i guess its harder to spot a golfer from a sex tourist than a family of four....

[LivinLOS]

Though having unpredictable immigration policies is the kiss of death to tour groups.. Imagine this happening to Joe Bloggs tourists, 2 weeks summer, 2 weeks Christmas.. Denied entry or told to visa run..

That doesnt have to happen many times for Tour companies to have a massive backlash.. Hence why my money is on this ruling not lasting..