Buying property in LOS

[Mim]

Hi guys, I wasn't too sure where to put this thread so I've decided to put it here.

Well as the title indicates I am considering buying property in LOS as I have come into a bit of money and I'm thinking of selling up an existing property that I have acquired. My mother has strongly discouraged me to invest any money in property in Thailand so is thus proving as useful as a legless footballer.

So here are a few questions:-

• I have a Thai passport but I am not resident in the country, does that mean I can still own the property outright? Plus I am not too sure I am supposed to have dual nationality.
• Is it safe to own a holiday home if you aren't there the majority of the time? My mother's friend (so she tells me) built a holiday home near Pattaya and it pretty much got stripped of everything including the light bulbs - is this a common occurrence?

Thanks

[Matt Knickerbox]

Originally Posted by Mim

• I have a Thai passport but I am not resident in the country, does that mean I can still own the property outright? Plus I am not too sure I am supposed to have dual nationality.
• Is it safe to own a holiday home if you aren't there the majority of the time? My mother's friend (so she tells me) built a holiday home near Pattaya and it pretty much got stripped of everything including the light bulbs - is this a common occurrence?

Thanks

Really me too...

To my understanding you have to be a Thai citizen to own your land. If you really really want land I'm sure having a Thai passport and curly hair would help a lot. It would just take time (maybe years), paperwork and Baht.
I'm not a 100% on the Thai passport deal you were talking. Are you not a resident because you have been out of Thailand for a bit?

Enjoy

[Mim]

I wonder whether the Thais would recognise me as someone that should have the same legal rights as a Thai born and bred? I'm not resident at all...well I lived in Bangkok for a year when I was 3 but does that count? Pfft! Britain allows dual nationality which gives me the right to enter and reside in Britain for as long as I want but from what I've dung out on the net, the views seem conflicting regarding Thailand's view on dual nationality.

I don't want land, I really have had it up to here with builders ****ing me around here, so I can't imagine how it'll be in Thailand. I was looking along the lines of a house or an apartment preferably in a gated community because it get the (maybe false) impression that it will be safer for the property.

I don't know why my mother is so anti my idea, it can't be that dodgy in Thailand can it? I need to research more because I don't think many BMs (if any) are in the same situation as me (regarding passports etc) and this idea has just come off the back of me getting pissed off over the aforementioned builders.

PS What has my curly hair got to do with anything? You prejudice curlist! :P

[ATMwalking]

If you have a Thai passport then you are more Thai than not. Likely you have some rights. Best to work with a good BKK based lawyer.

I haven't heard of a house being stripped bare before. But best to be in a secure community with guards and get a house alarm if you won't be there most of the time.

Weather it is a good investment right now, hard to say. You could do some buying at a great price right now. If you are prepared to hold for a while it could work out for you. There are some managed properties that offer rental guarantees. So you'd have 1 month's use then it generates income for you the rest of the year. The upside with this is there would be less chance for it to get stripped.

[Dodger]

Only rental guarantees I've seen on the island are speculative promises by developers with NO insurance to back up the guarantee, so unenforceable if not meeting their target figure.

But if development is a gated community, with 24hr guard and run by a mangement company you will have the element of security required.

Apartment you could buy leasehold and condominium freehold so passport not a relevance, the only question is could you buy freehold land because you have a thai passport, if you wanted a house rather than apartment.

Where's Lil when you need him, he'll know I reckon.

[LivinLOS]

She has a Thai passport.. Shes a Thai citizen.. Full stop. She can own land or property and land freehold. Residency would mean nothing in this case.

As to the relative merits of property purchases.. Well I have made my opinions known before.. I would say that it seems odd to speculate on property (thats what this would be buying to turn a profit) in a 3rd world country where things can go down much more easily than the west and where rule of law etc doesnt really cut it.

[Captain]

What LiL wants to say is: listen what your mother said.

[Matt Knickerbox]

You can find a real estate deal in Thailand and make profit. No doubt.
Just takes research... And the ability to hold onto the investment for several years.

[dbaron]

Originally Posted by Dodger

Only rental guarantees I've seen on the island are speculative promises by developers with NO insurance to back up the guarantee, so unenforceable if not meeting their target figure.

But if development is a gated community, with 24hr guard and run by a mangement company you will have the element of security required.

Apartment you could buy leasehold and condominium freehold so passport not a relevance, the only question is could you buy freehold land because you have a thai passport, if you wanted a house rather than apartment.

Where's Lil when you need him, he'll know I reckon.

Same same over here in Aust Dodger.
A company called Westwater Constructions was advertising on the radio about no risk investment properties. They were building units in the hundreds and guarenteeing fixed return results. Don't know if they were insured or not but they are now broke. Feel sorry for the investors if the insurance was not paid up as they will have lost everything and no results over ten years as promised. The owners might have to take their luck in the rental market themselves or move into the property and live there.

Regards

DB

[ATMwalking]

I've never really looked into the whole rental guarantee thing. But gut feeling was they just overcharged upfront to cover guarantee. Even then they only promise 6 or 7% which isn't exactly spectacular.

[Mim]

Thanks guys, lots of food for thought. It is a lot of money for me to risk considering how young I am. I'm definitely going to ask one of my uncles in Bangkok for advice in this area, when I get there.

[glassmanengland]

Originally Posted by Mim

Hi guys, I wasn't too sure where to put this thread so I've decided to put it here.

Well as the title indicates I am considering buying property in LOS as I have come into a bit of money and I'm thinking of selling up an existing property that I have acquired. My mother has strongly discouraged me to invest any money in property in Thailand so is thus proving as useful as a legless footballer.

So here are a few questions:-

• I have a Thai passport but I am not resident in the country, does that mean I can still own the property outright? Plus I am not too sure I am supposed to have dual nationality.
• Is it safe to own a holiday home if you aren't there the majority of the time? My mother's friend (so she tells me) built a holiday home near Pattaya and it pretty much got stripped of everything including the light bulbs - is this a common occurrence?

Thanks

Listen to your mother !

My advice (for whats it worth) would be

Keep whatever property you own , rent it out and with the income rent a nice property in Thailand.


You can also move around if you dont like a particular home or area as well


You also have a safer investment in your own country


simple really when you think about it

[Benjy]

Why isn't it a safe investment for a Thai passport holder in Thailand? Can you name one example where anything drastic has happened? The OP hasn't mentioned she wants to live in Thailand and Renting would be a waste of money.

I agree for Farang, who marry someone they are not entirely sure about that the "Only invest as much as you can afford to walk away with" maxim is right, thats not the cas ehere though is it?

Personally I am getting my Thai wife to invest as much money as possible in Phuket property, sorry but you can buy a very nice 200 sqm house here for 50,000 pounds, how long do you think thats gonna last?

[LivinLOS]

Investing in the 3rd world is much more of a roller coaster.. It may rush up (as its done here during the last prosperous and stable decade) it may crash down (as it did in Bali where 1mil USD villas became 250k in a year or two, or Burma, or any one of many countries that are developing). Tho it is the nightmare scenario, what do you imagine property values would be if one or two explosions happened in the nightlife zone ?? The market would be toast for 5 years.

Right now there are a huge amount of farangs that are well out of pocket on property as it simply will not budge, they just wont admit it or believe it.. I posted recently of a huge mansion place (8 - 10 mil plus last year surely) for 4 mil.. Another very luxury 160 sqm 3 bed with pool in Chalong last year asking 10mil this year asking 4mil. One in Rawai that was asking 13m now asking 7ish. For those with hard cash and an appetite for extreme risk theres some real bargains appearing as some people simply 'must sell' !

Since the FBA and FBA2, the land controls, the coup, etc.. Nearly nothing is being sold. I know land agents that would sell a piece every week or two that have sold 5 small things this year !! Its easy to say what risk is there for a Thai ? but this market was driven by farang buyers not Thai buyers, now the farang buyers have left the market theres not much sales action at all !! And any that there is is not in the high end homes which would be the average farang purchase.

Now of course we may get a nice smooth election, they may be farang friendly, and overseas investment orientated (I doubt it). Global disposable income may rise more and everything may be boom again.. But theres also real risk it wont be.

Also it has to be said (and this is my personal view which many would dissagree with) that Phuket has been a direct benefactor of a global boom, the world has had a prosperous 15 years, western house prices have boomed, people felt richer. When this happens people go on holiday more, they spend more, they buy second holiday homes around the world and think of luxuries. IMO that global boom is coming to a rapid end, house prices are breaking down in markets all over the globe, the dollar is tanking and interest rates may have to spike, foreclosures are already spiking, bad credit is endemic in some markets, those buy to let people are getting squeezed out (my mother just got an eviction notice due to this !! Her landlord is going to lose the house and after >5 years will be lucky to make anything on thier gamble / investment). Now thats just my opinion on what is at least a very real possibility for the next 5 - 10 year cycle. If thats the case I dont see the same flood of discretionary spending coming into Phuket that it has before, both into the tourism related market (bars and short termers) or the early retirees, the second home folks, the richer long stay guys.

Also dont get too carried away by the fact that 'its only 50k GBP'.. Theres loads of nice parts of the world where prices are low.. Many with better legal protections and real economy health than here too.. Bali is much cheaper than here (worse legal), my brother rents his 2 bed 2 story home on a secure development with communal pool for 2000 USD a year, he could buy it for 28k IIRC. Brazil is cheap (better legal protection, immigration and naturalization options), Venezuela, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras, Vietnam, Cambo, etc etc all have options, some may have worse on the street security but many offer better legal protections to ownership and most are more open in thier ability for new arrivals to own things 100%, many of the older guys dont really worry about the threat level out at 3am on the wh0rehouse streets as thats not how they want to retire...

Phuket is great, I love living here, but I dont regret for one second keeping my investments outside of Thailand and renting, my money is safe, I can sell or trade out of any position in a phone call, I have made better returns (OK I admit I have been lucky and done a lot better than average with my trades) on my assets that I would have by buying, my rent is <3% of the properties value, I can literally pack a bag and leave any time I want, with no financial penalty.

I wish anyone puchasing here the best of luck, I dont wish for problems or other dumb things, but I see fixed illiquid investment in the 3rd world to be a much less attractive investment than other options, Phuket doesnt appear 3rd world, and I think that confuses many people, and gives an impression of stability that is based on the recent decade and not reality. History says (I cant remember exactly) 25 ish coups in 80 years, 1993 saw the army shooting 100's of students in Tammarasat university, we have a non elected government, this isnt far past history, this is last 15 years stuff.

[nelsonone]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Investing in the 3rd world is much more of a roller coaster.. It may rush up (as its done here during the last prosperous and stable decade) it may crash down (as it did in Bali where 1mil USD villas became 250k in a year or two, or Burma, or any one of many countries that are developing). Tho it is the nightmare scenario, what do you imagine property values would be if one or two explosions happened in the nightlife zone ?? The market would be toast for 5 years.

Right now there are a huge amount of farangs that are well out of pocket on property as it simply will not budge, they just wont admit it or believe it.. I posted recently of a huge mansion place (8 - 10 mil plus last year surely) for 4 mil.. Another very luxury 160 sqm 3 bed with pool in Chalong last year asking 10mil this year asking 4mil. One in Rawai that was asking 13m now asking 7ish. For those with hard cash and an appetite for extreme risk theres some real bargains appearing as some people simply 'must sell' !

Since the FBA and FBA2, the land controls, the coup, etc.. Nearly nothing is being sold. I know land agents that would sell a piece every week or two that have sold 5 small things this year !! Its easy to say what risk is there for a Thai ? but this market was driven by farang buyers not Thai buyers, now the farang buyers have left the market theres not much sales action at all !! And any that there is is not in the high end homes which would be the average farang purchase.

Now of course we may get a nice smooth election, they may be farang friendly, and overseas investment orientated (I doubt it). Global disposable income may rise more and everything may be boom again.. But theres also real risk it wont be.

Also it has to be said (and this is my personal view which many would dissagree with) that Phuket has been a direct benefactor of a global boom, the world has had a prosperous 15 years, western house prices have boomed, people felt richer. When this happens people go on holiday more, they spend more, they buy second holiday homes around the world and think of luxuries. IMO that global boom is coming to a rapid end, house prices are breaking down in markets all over the globe, the dollar is tanking and interest rates may have to spike, foreclosures are already spiking, bad credit is endemic in some markets, those buy to let people are getting squeezed out (my mother just got an eviction notice due to this !! Her landlord is going to lose the house and after >5 years will be lucky to make anything on thier gamble / investment). Now thats just my opinion on what is at least a very real possibility for the next 5 - 10 year cycle. If thats the case I dont see the same flood of discretionary spending coming into Phuket that it has before, both into the tourism related market (bars and short termers) or the early retirees, the second home folks, the richer long stay guys.

Also dont get too carried away by the fact that 'its only 50k GBP'.. Theres loads of nice parts of the world where prices are low.. Many with better legal protections and real economy health than here too.. Bali is much cheaper than here (worse legal), my brother rents his 2 bed 2 story home on a secure development with communal pool for 2000 USD a year, he could buy it for 28k IIRC. Brazil is cheap (better legal protection, immigration and naturalization options), Venezuela, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Honduras, Vietnam, Cambo, etc etc all have options, some may have worse on the street security but many offer better legal protections to ownership and most are more open in thier ability for new arrivals to own things 100%, many of the older guys dont really worry about the threat level out at 3am on the wh0rehouse streets as thats not how they want to retire...

Phuket is great, I love living here, but I dont regret for one second keeping my investments outside of Thailand and renting, my money is safe, I can sell or trade out of any position in a phone call, I have made better returns (OK I admit I have been lucky and done a lot better than average with my trades) on my assets that I would have by buying, my rent is <3% of the properties value, I can literally pack a bag and leave any time I want, with no financial penalty.

I wish anyone puchasing here the best of luck, I dont wish for problems or other dumb things, but I see fixed illiquid investment in the 3rd world to be a much less attractive investment than other options, Phuket doesnt appear 3rd world, and I think that confuses many people, and gives an impression of stability that is based on the recent decade and not reality. History says (I cant remember exactly) 25 ish coups in 80 years, 1993 saw the army shooting 100's of students in Tammarasat university, we have a non elected government, this isnt far past history, this is last 15 years stuff.

agree with LiL......property is turning down globally at present and not a good investment anywhere compared to what you can get with a decently managed high yield fund comprising of mixed risk stocks...particularly if you are in a position where your investment is not taxable

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by Benjy

I agree for Farang, who marry someone they are not entirely sure about that the "Only invest as much as you can afford to walk away with" maxim is right, thats not the cas ehere though is it?

Personally I am getting my Thai wife to invest as much money as possible in Phuket property, sorry but you can buy a very nice 200 sqm house here for 50,000 pounds, how long do you think thats gonna last?

Just looking at statistics, over half of all marriages fail. But in Thailand, what rights do you have? Actually you gave those up anyway because a Thai lady married to a foreigner, the foreigner must sign off that he doesn't have a claim to any property she buys. So the "Only invest as much as you can afford to walk away with" rule would still apply. BTW, I'm not commenting directly on your relationship, just making a general comment.

50,000 pounds...I think our definition of "nice" must be different. I don't consider anything typical thai style (i.e. 5 different colors of tiles in just the kitchen) to be nice. Not a good investment as well as the market is moving up market.

[LivinLOS]

50k GBP.. 3mil baht.. Thats within spitting distance of that 3 bed 160sqm luxury bungalow in Chalong (4m asking). Make that 60 - 65k GBP and you get quite a few options in what I would consider 'nice' homes but not the seaview luxury set.

I have seen some places down at land and houses near the water that were only a hair above that 50k number. I know of 2 large townhouses in Patong (the most stupidly over priced place on the Island I guess) for 3.5 asking each..

In actual fact from an investment point of view I think those price levels are the slow and steady performers that have a safer investment profile than the higher end farang targetted luxury market.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

Just looking at statistics, over half of all marriages fail. But in Thailand, what rights do you have? Actually you gave those up anyway because a Thai lady married to a foreigner, the foreigner must sign off that he doesn't have a claim to any property she buys. So the "Only invest as much as you can afford to walk away with" rule would still apply.

While I fully agree in 'always cover your ass' thinking Ben is in a stable happy setup and I am sure is thinking that way. However I think Ben was referring to Mim who being a Thai citizen can own anything outright.

Also while you have to sign off that you have no claim on the ground you can still own the building, you can also lease the ground back with a guaranteed first purchase clause for even more protection.

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

While I fully agree in 'always cover your ass' thinking Ben is in a stable happy setup and I am sure is thinking that way. However I think Ben was referring to Mim who being a Thai citizen can own anything outright.

Yep, went back to edit saying wasn't commenting directly on ben, but didn't hit submit button right way. It's there now.

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Also while you have to sign off that you have no claim on the ground you can still own the building, you can also lease the ground back with a guaranteed first purchase clause for even more protection.

But then you are basically just leasing. But what is the split on married assests anyway? Wouldn't the lease or first purchase clause be half of hers (even if it is coming from here)? Of course then you are getting into the courts which ain't much fun.

I agree the lower end of the farang market/ higher end of thai market is safer (that was the decision I made). I think that one place you mentioned is the exception and that is why you mention it. If Ben's out bargin hunting and holding, it could pay off.

Yet I've had this conversation with my GF. We could buy everything we want under her name, but later could we resale it? That is the problem I see with these now cheap homes that are not leased, but done under a company with the current FBA. For the next few months it is such a wild card. Sure the GF/Wife could still own it and then 30 Year lease it out to a foreign buyer. But most foreigners would be happier (and wiser) to get a lease from a proper thai company than an individual.

[Dodger]

A related question, farang can legally own the building freehold but only rent the land for a 30 year period. I sort of assumed the farang market was not yet established in a biggish way for 30 years but has it ever come to court that the 30 year lease has expired, the Thai lessor has then asked for the use of his land back but the farang has freehold ownership of his house on the other guys land?

I sort of felt that the rules were a little more slack years ago, the Thai limited company route was more prevalent years ago and of course most guys add the option to buy if rules change and extension on leases for two further sets of 30 years, but wondered if any one knows of any case that has gone to court or even been disputed as I cannot get my head round how they could do it legally.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by Dodger

A related question, farang can legally own the building freehold but only rent the land for a 30 year period. I sort of assumed the farang market was not yet established in a biggish way for 30 years but has it ever come to court that the 30 year lease has expired, the Thai lessor has then asked for the use of his land back but the farang has freehold ownership of his house on the other guys land?

I sort of felt that the rules were a little more slack years ago, the Thai limited company route was more prevalent years ago and of course most guys add the option to buy if rules change and extension on leases for two further sets of 30 years, but wondered if any one knows of any case that has gone to court or even been disputed as I cannot get my head round how they could do it legally.

The farang has the right to sell the home to the lease holder, attempt to renew, take the