Thailand Expats

swiftdave · #1 02-12-2007, 03:18

I've been home now for 2 weeks. I wouldn't say I'm suffering from the LOS blues, more the living in the west blues.

I got home and checked my mail and got my income tax assessment. So after stroking a cheque for about 1.2m baht, I started my truck and scraped the ice off the windows, poured a cup of coffee and wondered why I came home.

I should just sell it all and buy a little bar in Thailand and enjoy life for a while.

I have assets but no real residual income. I could live quite well in LOS for a year or two on my assets but then what? What I'd like to do is buy a bar in LOS and live off of it's income, keeping my own money in reserve.

I've gotten a lot of differing opinions and no real answers.

Can a person live off of the income from a bar in Patong or not.

How much can a person expect to bring in. I realize there is alot of factors involved so I'm looking for best guesses. Initial investment isn't really a factor, depending on return.

I know I'm asking for alot, but I think this forum could provide some honest answers. I certainly wouldn't rely solely on advise given here but I do know that many of the members here are doing exactly what I would like to do.

What advise do you give?

What would be the initial investment, and the net take home for the Owner be for the following....

A beer bar on one of the sois off Bangla
A gogo bar same area
A beer bar in Patong not on Bangla
A beer bar in Kamala, Karon or Kata

Where do you think the bargains are? Any up and coming area where someone willing to take a risk could do well?

The Loop · #2 02-12-2007, 03:28

This has been discussed here plenty of times before,but the educated opinion is,only risk in LOS what you are willing to lose.
There are obviously some good bars but there are sh1tloads of dud`s.
A decent bar would probably cost you a lot more than it is worth,IMO.

I think it is much better to leave your money in your own country and set up an income stream from there.

Good Luck.

ub2yoo · #3 02-12-2007, 03:41

That's true, you don't suffer from LOS Blues....

...hang on a minute:

I should just sell it all and buy a little bar in Thailand and enjoy life for a while.

I would bet that's the #1 indicator from "All-Time-Indicators" of a severe LOS Blues :-)

There was a great thread started by Dodger recently about a available bar and all discussions around that.

+

There was also a great thread about "What would you do different if you would run a decent size bar" recently.

Putting this together and with some great ideas, max effort and low financial expectations I guess it could be accomplished from what I read and gather.

Of cause I also would love to live a life in tropical LOS, but to me the risks are currently higher than the desire. Also, it helps a lot when you live in a warmer climate where you don't need to scrap ice of your car in the morning, instead you put your sunshades on, open all windows and enjoy the blue sky.

Surely the most easiest and safest solution would be to seek a warmer climate, but still be able to do your current job or profession.

The Loop · #4 02-12-2007, 03:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by ub2yoo

instead you put your sunshades on, open all windows and enjoy the blue sky.

Sunnies or the Rose Tinted Glasses?

The rainy season this year was full on,it belted down on and off for months.

swiftdave · #5 02-12-2007, 04:06

With all due respect, the question isn't whether or not it would be better to have an income from home, either from investments or work, but rather, what do bar owners net.

Can you live off of the income alone or do you need to supplement it?

I guess only I know what my budget would be, but to know how to achieve it, you need to know what income to expect and go from there.

Other threads on this forum have been ambiguous at best. Even Dodgers thread that you refer to raises more questions than answers. I looked at this bar a few weeks ago and it's one that I'm considering. The low input costs and the location is appealing, but there is a lot of discussion about the 1m figure projected and I'm honest enough with myself to realize I haven't a clue if its realistic. But it is a starting point.

ub2yoo · #6 02-12-2007, 04:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Loop

Sunnies or the Rose Tinted Glasses?

The rainy season this year was full on,it belted down on and off for months.

I was more refering to a decision one can make to move to other warmer climates, it really helps to forget things like a LOS Blues. If someone is fat-up with cold weather, dark winters or similar, there are ways out without risking all your money, still working in your profession and even more opportunities which might open up.

For example, it hasn't rained a single day since I moved here in June, I simply can't believe how great that is.

... just trying to open up other additional alternatives for Swiftdave to think about :-)

ub2yoo · #7 02-12-2007, 04:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftdave

With all due respect, the question isn't whether or not it would be better to have an income from home, either from investments or work, but rather, what do bar owners net.

Can you live off of the income alone or do you need to supplement it?

I guess only I know what my budget would be, but to know how to achieve it, you need to know what income to expect and go from there.

Other threads on this forum have been ambiguous at best. Even Dodgers thread that you refer to raises more questions than answers. I looked at this bar a few weeks ago and it's one that I'm considering. The low input costs and the location is appealing, but there is a lot of discussion about the 1m figure projected and I'm honest enough with myself to realize I haven't a clue if its realistic. But it is a starting point.

Okay, fair enough. You are seriously in to it. It sounded like a LOS Blues with the topic .. is there all there is... followed by I'm back from LOS and complains about the weather, I'm going to buy a bar 5555 Sorry :-)

Will be interesting to see how this developes if you are really going for it!
Good Luck!

The Loop · #8 02-12-2007, 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by ub2yoo

... just trying to open up other additional alternatives for Swiftdave to think about :-)

No problem there buddy.

But if SD spent any time at MTB while he was there,surely he noticed that the majority of the bars in Soi Eric had a BG to customer ratio of about 3 or 4 to 1.Some no customers at all!
Nicke does well for obvious reasons.

I certainly wouldn`t like to get stuck with a business that i was expecting to pay my bills but ended up costing me money for the privilege of further filling the pockets of the landlord.

As far as his question how much does a bar owner net,the answer would be anything from a miniscule amount that a Thai could live off,to millions of baht per year.

There is just too many bars and too many scenarios regarding position,hosting said bar,seasons etc,etc.

Nicke · #9 02-12-2007, 04:31

I would not recommend bar business, I am doing OK thanks to the forum but the profit after rent, keymoney, salaries is pretty small. Without the forum, I would be back in Sweden for sure.

Most bars lose money due to high rent and keymoney. Keymoney, money paid upfront, its the reason why people can live on their income during the lease, but cant afford to pay another lease as they cant save to cover for the lease.

So I would say keymoney practise in Thailand is a clever thing, because if you paid real rent every month people would understand more quickly it doesnt work out. But thanks to pre-paid rent (keymoney) they make their living on their income but not enough to cover for the pre paid rent when lease is out.

I have seen lot of bar owners and guest house owners over the years, its not easy, come and go. The guys with hotels/guesthouses who survive is the guys who owns it, rather than a lease. Also 20+ rooms should be a minimum. Forgot a guesthouse with just 6-12 rooms, no one make it.

For bars, crazy prices being asked these days. 3m baht asked for a small bar in Tiger these days is just crazy IMHO. If you ask me, a bar should not cost more than 1.2-1.5 m baht for a 3 year lease if you want be able to make money.

The problem is demand, always people around who pay crazy money as they want to live here. But they dont think they will go back 2-3 years later as they dont make any money, unless they have other incomes or money to cover for the loss and/or run the business for fun.

ub2yoo · #10 02-12-2007, 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicke

I would not recommend bar business, I am doing OK thanks to the forum but the profit after rent, keymoney, salaries is pretty small. Without the forum, I would be back in Sweden for sure.

Most bars lose money due to high rent and keymoney. Keymoney, money paid upfront, its the reason why people can live on their income during the lease, but cant afford to pay another lease as they cant save to cover for the lease.

So I would say keymoney practise in Thailand is a clever thing, because if you paid real rent every month people would understand more quickly it doesnt work out. But thanks to pre-paid rent (keymoney) they make their living on their income but not enough to cover for the pre paid rent when lease is out.

I have seen lot of bar owners and guest house owners over the years, its not easy, come and go. The guys with hotels/guesthouses who survive is the guys who owns it, rather than a lease. Also 20+ rooms should be a minimum. Forgot a guesthouse with just 6-12 rooms, no one make it.

For bars, crazy prices being asked these days. 3m baht asked for a small bar in Tiger these days is just crazy IMHO. If you ask me, a bar should not cost more than 1.2-1.5 m baht for a 3 year lease if you want be able to make money.

The problem is demand, always people around who pay crazy money as they want to live here. But they dont think they will go back 2-3 years later as they dont make any money, unless they have other incomes or money to cover for the loss and/or run the business for fun.

You really should make that one a sticky! Very interesting and it makes so much sense. Thanks.

Nicke · #11 02-12-2007, 04:55

Another thing, if you have more money to invest, its more likely you can make it.

E.g. a big bar/club in good location for a longer term rather than a beer bar for a short time, but that requires more money to start off with.

The Loop · #12 02-12-2007, 05:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicke

E.g. a big bar/club in good location for a longer term rather than a beer bar for a short time, but that requires more money to start off with.

And probably some expertise in that type of business.

MajorTom · #13 02-12-2007, 05:49

I would not say that "most" bars loose money. Not being able to cover the costs of a farang lifestyle is probably very common though.
But you would have to do really bad if you dont get back most of what you put in.

Rent/Lease price development in the sois off bangla during the last year has been mad. It used to be hard for the average bar to make a living from it.. now its worse..

If you really want it, go there and try it for a while. If you can't make it in the long run, It will at least most probably make your stay a bit chepaer

That said, barowner life is hard even if you do make a living from it. I had some pretty hard jobs i my carrer but barowning is probably the most exhausting one. Guys thats been around for years, almost every night of the week is just amazing and truly respectable IMO

The Loop · #14 02-12-2007, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by MajorTom

Guys thats been around for years, almost every night of the week is just amazing and truly respectable IMO

Very hardy liver`s as well.

LivinLOS · #15 02-12-2007, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by swiftdave

With all due respect, the question isn't whether or not it would be better to have an income from home, either from investments or work, but rather, what do bar owners net.

Can you live off of the income alone or do you need to supplement it?

Its not a valid question.. Some bars lose money every month (after key money, some maybe even before it).. Some big bars may take 500k a month.

Location, regulars, personality of owner, time of year.. So many variables you really cannot say but I will say that the vast majority lose money and work a lot to do so.

Theres also the health implications, not all of us have the constitution of Gier or Nicke.. Getting drunk every night, night after night, year after year.. Is that really a life you want ?? Theres no middle ground here, bars dont work without thier owner and owners cant sit there sober.

I think there are other options for this but your comments that the assets might run out ofter a couple of years worries me, I would want assets working overseas as my backup plan and work a business here for pin money and hope it breaks even. Keep an exit strategy dont be one of those sorry buggers who have come, blown it, and are clinging on trying to to admit defeat and return home potless.

LivinLOS · #16 02-12-2007, 09:43

More advice..

Dont consider any options without living in Thailand a little bit, 6 months would be my min.

Try to think outside the box, everyone and thier uncle buys a bar, competition is high margins are low, look to new ideas that fit the trend of how Patong is developing.

geespot · #17 02-12-2007, 10:27

I think Nicke summed it up nicely

To put some figures on it

a bar with key money of say 1.5m (which u cant get but just factor everything up)
your drinks markin is somewhere between 50-60%
consider you monthly overheads on top of that carefully
If you can sell at least 10k drink per night always! then you should be doing about 100-130k profit per month

With more specifics i could work a budget model for anyone internested

As has been pointed out, the question is can you live in that and survive the health implicaations of running a bar

Also you need to realize it takes a certain personality to do it and putting up with ass holes u dont necessarily like and smile smile smile

G

AJAXIED · #18 03-12-2007, 13:33

I think that another item to consider is the type of tourists that Patong is attracting. 8 years ago the US navy used to come frequently to Patong for some R&R and there were lots more single men visiting Phuket.

I sat outside Ocean Plaza the other day and looked at the tourists walk by. There were so many married couples, farang girls and Asian groups on Bangla whilst a few years ago you would have seen almost only farang guys.

I would imagine that the type of tourists that I saw are less likely to spend money in beer bars then single guys so it seems to me that it is becoming tougher and tougher to generate a decent income from bars and go go bars when compared to 5 or 10 years ago. What do you think about this Nicke?

I know a few Thai people that have owned bars in Patong for over 10 years and they are now without bars as they say it has become almost impossible to live off the bar and have enough money to pay the next key money as Nicke said.

LivinLOS · #19 03-12-2007, 14:03

I think there are less and less Thai owned bars simply as they are being pushed out by the ever increasing farangs who pay amounts that simply will not pay when you count in key deposit. A thai will have an idea of what a bar will make after all other costs but the farang hopes it will pay.

landofsmiles · #20 03-12-2007, 14:05

Loads of bars for sale in the soi just along from the Immigration office on beach road. 3 alongside each other have signs up....and this is just as high season is starting!! What does that tell you!

If you need to make an income to keep yourself going here, best way is to do something on the net.

floppy · #21 03-12-2007, 17:45

I wouldnt even question what Nicke and the other expats have said about owning a bar in patong they have seen them come and go ..I have a good friend in patong who I have known a very long time and was in the same situation as swift dave fed up with his lot ..american, all be it maybe a bit older .came to patong in the early 70s on r/r from vietnam and came back again 5 maybe 6 years ago and bought a bar in Patong and is still there, up and running more good luck than anything else.I always make a point of going there often when in los and get the hard truth off him on bar ownership and finiance and life goings on..he tends to get by on what the bar pulls in only just, but he has no regrets and is content with his lot .he also pulls in a military pension but very rarely touches it unless something comes up that is out of the ordinary..if you feel like you are in a rut at home and cant see anyway out maybe sometimes you should throw caution to the wind and throw your lot in ..money isnt everything being content in my opion is more important...Ive been self employed all my life and never had a boss, maybe I look at work differently but look into it and good luck!