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#72
15-02-2007, 21:07
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Perhaps, sometimes there are warning signs and signals that Thai's display when getting worked up, but us ignorant Farang don't reconize them because we are not Thai.
Having said that I do think that Thai people when angry will "see a green light" when Farangs might see a red one. I had a Thai wife who once smashed every window in our apartment, where as my previous Australian wife only smashed a couple of windows, and she used bricks. The Thai punched them out and needed loads of stiches afterwards. 
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#73
15-02-2007, 21:58
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Only a woman can break his spell. Pure in heart who will offer herself
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#74
16-02-2007, 02:42
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I hope so too... Quote:
See does not work in MTB anymore as far as I know...
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LIFES A BIT*H THEN U MARRY 1 
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#75
16-02-2007, 03:16
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I am sure there can be some fact in the statement that we are not Thai so perhaps we cannot see the situation developing, but this is dispelled in my mind because firstly the Thai went from smiley face to instant aggression with no time for any warning signs nor any previous build up and secondly it cannot explain the times it is Thai on Thai, as they surely should see it coming?
Face, yes easy to put it down to this and I am also sure this is the case in a lot of the incidences but getting back on thread what is it that drives them from non confrontational to explosive very violent aggression? Also side note to Alley, I'm sure that your personal experience is that you have seen an incident each time you were here but I can tell you it is actually not that often. In the last year I have only seen a couple of things and heard about only a few others, (I am excluding stabbings or shootings on the island, because these have usually been arranged), in the UK these things were happening in my town every weekend.
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today.
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#76
16-02-2007, 03:33
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With my limited time in Patong, I have only experienced the thai aggression once. I was staying at Patong Villa, and for those who don't know, you have to pass a line of tailors and t -shirt vendors to get into the hotel.
Every day this tailor was trying to get me into his shop. Every day I declined saying I don't wear suits,etc, but he kept asking. One day, I cracked, and said, not now, but I will visit before I leave for home. He left me alone then and just enquired occasionally when would I be coming in to look around. Now I genuinely forgot, and on the morning of leaving the PV minibus was driving down the alleyway and past the tailor. He was talking to somebody,and laughing, but just glanced at the van and spotted me. Well I can truly say I have never seen a look like it. You all know the saying "If looks could kill" ? well this guy had it. He had gone in a split second, from a guy joking around, to one who looked capable of causing me some damage. All because I forgot to go into his shop. OK, I was in the wrong by promising and then failing to go in, but the way he reacted was not normal by "western" standards.
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If we aren't supposed to eat animals, why are they made of meat?
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#77
16-02-2007, 03:39
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OK, I was in the wrong by promising and then failing to go in, but the way he reacted was not normal by "western" standards.
there is no way you could say you were wrong that is part of having a business, expecting people not to follow up on "prmoises" or indications of interest
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#78
16-02-2007, 03:45
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But thats the thing, I dont only see one incident every trip Dodger, I see it numerous times happening, So I beg to differ on your opinion, With all due respect to whether you see it or not, It does not mean that it does not happen all the time, Its just that you dont see it.. Its the same though if I went out in my own city, I would see it almost everynight and even if I didnt see it, I am not that shortsighted to believe its not happening around the corner or around the next corner... I think it happens equally as much in Los as it does at home, But normally thats just a straight punch up and maybe the odd bottle, But its the way they go for the kill with Knifes and stuff out of nowhere and the way they all stick together and pounce on you in numbers, Especially when they dont even know one another, I think that is the most worrying part of it... Dont get me wrong I have met loads of great Thai people, Absolute saints and some of the friendliest around who are the total opposite of what I am describing here, And thats where Diz makes a very good point, Its not right to paint everyone with the same brush, Its actually extremely unfair on those people...
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LIFES A BIT*H THEN U MARRY 1
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#79
16-02-2007, 03:51
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Dont get me wrong I have met loads of great Thai people, Absolute saints and some of the friendliest around who are the total opposite of what I am describing here, And thats where Diz makes a very good point, Its not right to paint everyone with the same brush, Its actually extremely unfair on those people...
but you would be an extreme fool not to acknowledge that it happens and more imortant, not to see the violent level that it elevates to when a thai does get mad
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#80
16-02-2007, 08:17
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 ) was suspended because an Italian poilceman was killed in riotng after a game ? This was not premeditated, it was spur of the moment aggression straight after a game of football. People "erupted" !! Are we now going to be extreme fools to go to football matches where Italians are part of the crowd ?
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Only a woman can break his spell. Pure in heart who will offer herself
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#81
16-02-2007, 08:45
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I dont disagree with your comment.. But my thoughts would be that its not that the Thai does or doesn't see it coming.. The Thai might be less confrontational in their line of questioning, or maybe not put the person in the face losing spot (like I was describing above) giving them the reason to blow. Quote:
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I am sorta 50/50 here.. I think Ally may have had a run of bad luck in seeing more than average.. Also the combo of late night drinking and Bangla rd has probably put him in the high incidence locations.. I would say there is probably less casual violence than back home.. Its more a case of the violence comes a little unannounced and when it does come doesnt have sensible boundries.. Stories of thais murdering each other in rage seem much more common per population here IMO, a recent incedent where one gy murdered another because one used the mung / goo terms instead of being at his politest.. The other went and got a knife and stabbed and killed him, then hes caught and going to do time for murder. That kind of over the top reaction strikes me as being more a Thai trait.
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#82
16-02-2007, 08:57
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Diz I think your currently in the rose tinted glasses stage.. No offence intended we all go through that point in time (I certainly did) but there's no need to defend everything about Thailand, as like anywhere it has some drawbacks. Also this is more a case about how Thais are different and behave differently from 'western' ways.. This isn't a Latino forum, it isn't a Mediterranean forum, its a Thai forum.. Hence it makes perfect sense to discuss the 'Thai temperament' and contrast it with our own. I think its perfectly fair to say Thai stress harmony in their interpersonal relationships, this Sabai Sabai attitude and mai pen rai attitude both provide a good basis for calm easy soft interaction.. However westerners can perceive that easy going harmonious nature to be a fixed part of their personality, but I would say that's not truly the case, its more a supression of the negative emotions for face (and also interesting to wonder if that's part of the serfdom of feudalism that was here barely 100 years ago, the fatalistic attitude, the being stuck with life's lot, the inability to complain to lord and masters ?? Its a tangent but one that may have some kind of ingrained psychological reasoning in their psyche)... So discussion on a Thai board that their still waters run deep or even that they seem to have a more violent snapping point is not constantly taking a pop at them, its more acknowledging the reality of the personality your dealing with IMO.
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#83
16-02-2007, 10:24
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I compare my little quiet town in the UK to Patong, bustling tourist centre catering for people from all over the world, mixing in alcohol and women and then consider the amount or level of violence. I take on board Ally's comments and think about them as either I am extremely lucky to see the low level of violence I have witnessed or Ally carries around an air of something maybe the 'fighting irish' and it rubs off on poor unsuspecting locals as he passes, bit like they say a random rape victim is perhaps not so random but gives off vibes which attract the rapist. (this not a pop at Ally cos he does not look for nor create violence, just a joke)
My first visit I saw no violence, but when I cam back about 18 months later was amazed to see a violent or confrontational incident almost every night of my 2 week holiday. It was even quite a big factor in whether I returned to Thailand for future holidays. However, the threat of violence did not ourweigh the lure of the ladies so I came back about 4 times per year for the next 4 years. Including those times and the past 13 months of living here I have only witnessed 2 incidents and know of 2 more from sons stories and read of a few other things happening. So Ally I think you have just been unlucky to have seen the level of things you have, it is not as Lil suggests that you are in places it happens, because you are in the same places as I am myself. About the Thai to Thai thing, it was my intention to state that if it happens when its Thai to Thai then perhaps it is not just our facial expression being incorrect or us not seeing it coming because a Thai doesnt see it coming either.I do not think anyone can the times I have had it happen or seen it, as there is no warning, body language or verbal warning it all explodes too quickly. Also do not think Diz has rose coloured specs but is hanging in there with 'do not spout predjudice about Thais' but agree with you Lil, of course we are because its a Thai forum and if you consider all the threads you can say how biased they are, well yea........
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today.
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#84
16-02-2007, 12:40
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With my limited time in Patong, I have only experienced the thai aggression once.
HIGHLY UNLIKELY to have been a Thai. The tailor shops are almost 100% staffed by Nepalese and Burmese. The Thais working for the tailors in the main are out the back of Patong in the little "sweat" shops actually making the clothing.
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#85
16-02-2007, 14:48
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Well just had a long chat with my Thai teacher regarding this 'eruption' thingy. Firstly, it was interesting that she totally agreed that Thai people are different to the many other races she has experienced and do erupt very quickly, she is not being racist Diz, she is Thai.
She said there a variety of reasons in her opinion, firstly it would be alcohol, which is really a given and one we understand but sometimes cannot realise that x or y has had a few so their normal behaviour of non confrontation is lessened. Second she said is usually because of loss of face, as we have discussed here already but she put a new slant on my Tuk Tuk drivers rage, she said when he walked over to the tuk tuk he would be thinking, ha three farang nice little extra earner here double the bill ,stupid farang will not know. When he quoted 800 and I simply queried it by asking 'how much?' she said he has immediately lost face, he has not got stupid tourist farang but one that seems to know a little bit more and this loss of face would instigate an outrage burst to cover up his face loss. I hadn't considered this before and find it quite disturbing cos it does not make a lot of obvious sense to me, nor one I could see coming in the future. The third and the area I hadn't considered before nor mentioned on this thread yet is patience, or rather a great lack of patience (patience not spelt that right? but used phonetics). She said you have seen the way Thais drive? never waiting always wanting to get through, passed etc, she said seen us in the bank or shop, never wanting to que, it is this impatience that also leads to an outburst many times, motorcy taxi gets impatient that you are querying his cost, so goes off on one. Just found the whole conversation interesting ,she is born in the south, college educated and says quite a bit of the 'eruptrions' she had to deal with are from the above 3, or a combination of the above and combined with a lack of intelligence (she describes intelligence as an ability to consider/question). Oh yeah and just one other point she made is do not think all Thais are bhuddists and follow the bhuddist way, she said most do not follow the practise of bhuddism as they have never learned it, that was interesting comment as well.
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today. Last edited by Dodger : 16-02-2007 at 18:51.
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#86
16-02-2007, 15:18
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That's an interesting insight there Dodger and thanks for that.
Interesting reading and throws some light on the 7-11 'incident' for me last night. Perhaps 'incident' is too strong..........more of an observation from me. You were outside buying noodles and I had gone in for smokes and milk. I was next in line to be served at the till when three young lads just pushed in front of me (or seemed to push in front of me) I sparked for a nano-second and thought...........OK! I'm in Thailand, in the 7-11, it's quite late. They all had packets of chewing gum and 1000 Baht notes. The teller, I could see wasn't phased and I am guessing this is normal routine for splitting thier notes down, at least they had made a purchase. The teller looked at me in a way to say "I should serve you first" - I acknowledged that with a smile and said in English while pointing......."It's fine, deal with them, no ploblem etc etc" They were all smiles with me after that.............Not sure what the big rush was to get somewhere with the change at that time of night.........It doesn't really matter........They seemed in a rush to be somewhere!! Possibly a gambling game somewhere, I don't know. Dodgers teacher alluded to them always being in a rush to be somewhere.......Anyway..... I suppose in a split second it could have gone from: Fat bloke in hospital looking like a kiddies sewing kit and breathing through a tube - To: Lots of smiles, Dodger has his noodles and had to wait a bit longer for the fat bloke to emerge from the 7-11..........We live and learn and what I do take away from this thread (and it's a good thread for a change) is this: Learn and live! Simple!
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The idea is to die young.........as late as possible. 
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#87
16-02-2007, 16:20
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The difference of western ways vs. thai ways is something we all clearly agree on this point. Thais will hold onto their smile right up until the breaking point. Keeping face does require them to not show they are upset (LIL). So there are no progressive visible signs of anger. When the snap comes, it is very fast and an extreme change from their previous state. It takes thais and farang by surprise (Dodger). This is very different than farang, where it is OK and expected to put on a show of increasingly angry expressions and sound. All have a chance to prevent an explosion and violence. There are only two points that there is no agreement on. The first point is how much anger is generally under the surface (TanMan/LIL). For patong, I agree there is more anger and frustration under the surface. Keep in mind that patong has thais from all over the country and customs and dialects vary from place to place. A lot of the thais here have never been outside thier village before. Some words pronounced by a Isarn or southern person sound like a different and very rude word to a northerner. Patong is highly transient and people can hop on the bus to their villige as soon as they cause trouble. There are a lot of jerk tourists and expats. Patong is such a mash-up of farang and thai cultures...now for everyone mix in sleep depervation, greed, mafia, debt, alcohol abuse, communication problems, separation from family, inflation...it is amazing it is as calm as it is. Second issue is Patong vs. the rest of thailand (dizbuster). I don't think dizbuster has "rose tinted glasses" on. Some here have a real thick pair of Patong Goggles on. Perhaps as one of the few here that has lived in Patong and now lives in a non tourist area, I am telling you the difference in attitude and behavior is very different between the two places. Out here in Chalong, I have never seen or heard of any thai be rude, let alone confrontational. Long stay expats with more truly local thais not dependent on the tourist baht is a much happier mix. In Patong during high-season, so many short-time people there driving the greed factor way up and really isn't nice. Really you could compare patong high season with low season and you almost have two different places. My fear is that someone who hasn't spent as much time here would look at this thread and think it is a really scary place. If I was a lurker reading this thread I would be very concerned. BTW Denver, perfect example. Thais don't queue which is a total p*ss-off rude insult to most farang (me included). To them it seems normal and not a fighting matter. culture clash at the local 7. BTW ALLY, I've been out in Patong for hundreds of nights and have only ever seen 1 fight. Tourists. And they came together as friends But I am not a all night boozer and I go to places with good security (Seduction, Dragon, ect.)
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Women with a past and men without a future grope and shuffle on the dance floor. Last edited by ATMwalking : 16-02-2007 at 16:23.
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#88
16-02-2007, 16:31
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__________________
The idea is to die young.........as late as possible.
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#89
16-02-2007, 17:02
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Another highlight of the tourist area issue. Dodger, just curious on how you approached him. Did you establish yourself as local? Or when you said "how much?" did you have a stern western face on? I'm wondering on how your thai teacher suggest that you handle this situation. In my mind, thais would keep smiling and just politely toss out a counter offer.
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Women with a past and men without a future grope and shuffle on the dance floor.
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