Face

[bigsquat]

I've been seeing alot about Thais and face. In particular I was reading some stuff on stickman, as well as a recent numbered post. Isn't this just "caring what others think"?

I was always taught to "not give a f***" what others think, to do my own thing, etc. Is the face game being overly political in your relationships with other folks? I suspect that in our one-on-one farang/thai relationships, the thai people do relax the face game, since we don't know how to play, so they stop playing too.

[JayBee]

Originally Posted by bigsquat

I've been seeing alot about Thais and face. In particular I was reading some stuff on stickman, as well as a recent numbered post. Isn't this just "caring what others think"?

I always learned to "not give a f***" what others think, to do my own thing, etc. Is the "face game" a matter of being overly political in your relationships with other folks? I suspect that in our one-on-one farang/thai relationships, the thai people do relax the face game, since we don't know how to play, so they stop playing too.

I think that people, in general, are more apt to let down their guard and not be concerned about face so much in one-on-one personal relationships, and, especially intimate relationships. Being real friends with a guy or having real intimacy with a woman is about being able to show them who you really are, and trusting that they will accept the real you. I think this is true between farangs or Thais or people the whole world over. Face has to do with what other people are going to think. Friendship and intimacy are about creating a relationship in a space that is private, above and beyond what other people may think. Other people are always trying to intrude into that space, and the test of a relationship or friendship is whether it can hold together against the onslaught of unsolicited opinions and antagonism from others, or whether it will succumb to external pressures.

Like you, I grew up in a world where I learned to "not give a **** about what others think." In that world, the people who don't give a **** about what other people think are the leaders and the rest are the followers. If you want to get anywhere in life, then you've got to think for yourself and chart your own course. It was not my parents who taught me that. I learned it in the school of hard knocks!

It seems to me that because in America it is every man for himself, that this kind of thinking is a lot more prevalent here, although you still have the religious right, who are of the follow the leader mentality, as well as on the opposite side of the political spectrum, the liberals who are ruled by ideas of political correctness.

But it is my impression of the Euros, that consensual thought is much more of a way of life and important in their world. Maybe I'm wrong about this, because I am generalizing, but it just seems that Euros are a lot more sensitive about what others think of them than Americans are, and a lot more concerned with not rubbing their buddies the wrong way!

At the end of the day, each of us is alone. Even those who are married. And it's only close family who will likely be there for you when need them. And you can't always count on them, either, as they've got their own lives and troubles to attend to. It is not that I don’t care about what my friends think, but only so far as they don’t try to impose their values and opinions on me. If they have a great thought or an insight that makes an impression on me, then I might want to incorporate that in my outlook. But if they try to impose their opinion or values on me, then they lose my respect, because they are not showing me respect, and then they fall into the “ I don’t give a **** what they think” category. So while it is always great to have a laugh with a buddy and enjoy the attentions of others, it is not good to let them affect the way you think or feel about yourself. You have to find your strength inside yourself, so as to be neither weakened by attacks from others, nor made soft by the subtle seduction of flattery.

But then this is just an American speaking. I know it is different for Thais, because for a Thai, the person and his/her family are almost one and the same, and friends are extremely important to them as well, especially the BGs, for whom the friends become a surrogate family. For Euros, I don't really know how it is. But from my observations, it seems as if it is a lot different than the way it is for Americans. I think that is because they come from societies which are very stable and fairly homogenous, whereas American society is much more in flux, and full of diversity, not homogenous at all.

JayBee

[stevem]

Originally Posted by bigsquat

I've been seeing alot about Thais and face.

It is very real, and is handled and dealt with by various individuals in lots of different ways, from basically disappearing under the table, to full on violence. If your spending considerable time in Thailand, then you will need to learn to respect it and how to deal with it.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by JayBee

I think that people, in general, are more apt to let down their guard and not be concerned about face so much in one-on-one personal relationships, and, especially intimate relationships. Being real friends with a guy or having real intimacy with a woman is about being able to show them who you really are, and trusting that they will accept the real you. I think this is true between farangs or Thais or people the whole world over. Face has to do with what other people are going to think. Friendship and intimacy are about creating a relationship in a space that is private, above and beyond what other people may think. Other people are always trying to intrude into that space, and the test of a relationship or friendship is whether it can hold together against the onslaught of unsolicited opinions and antagonism from others, or whether it will succumb to external pressures.

Like you, I grew up in a world where I learned to "not give a **** about what others think." In that world, the people who don't give a **** about what other people think are the leaders and the rest are the followers. If you want to get anywhere in life, then you've got to think for yourself and chart your own course. It was not my parents who taught me that. I learned it in the school of hard knocks!

It seems to me that because in America it is every man for himself, that this kind of thinking is a lot more prevalent here, although you still have the religious right, who are of the follow the leader mentality, as well as on the opposite side of the political spectrum, the liberals who are ruled by ideas of political correctness.

But it is my impression of the Euros, that consensual thought is much more of a way of life and important in their world. Maybe I'm wrong about this, because I am generalizing, but it just seems that Euros are a lot more sensitive about what others think of them than Americans are, and a lot more concerned with not rubbing their buddies the wrong way!

At the end of the day, each of us is alone. Even those who are married. And it's only close family who will likely be there for you when need them. And you can't always count on them, either, as they've got their own lives and troubles to attend to. It is not that I don’t care about what my friends think, but only so far as they don’t try to impose their values and opinions on me. If they have a great thought or an insight that makes an impression on me, then I might want to incorporate that in my outlook. But if they try to impose their opinion or values on me, then they lose my respect, because they are not showing me respect, and then they fall into the “ I don’t give a **** what they think” category. So while it is always great to have a laugh with a buddy and enjoy the attentions of others, it is not good to let them affect the way you think or feel about yourself. You have to find your strength inside yourself, so as to be neither weakened by attacks from others, nor made soft by the subtle seduction of flattery.

But then this is just an American speaking. I know it is different for Thais, because for a Thai, the person and his/her family are almost one and the same, and friends are extremely important to them as well, especially the BGs, for whom the friends become a surrogate family. For Euros, I don't really know how it is. But from my observations, it seems as if it is a lot different than the way it is for Americans. I think that is because they come from societies which are very stable and fairly homogenous, whereas American society is much more in flux, and full of diversity, not homogenous at all.

JayBee

jaybee,
your quote about family has me thinking. being from the east coast, living out in the west coast, do you think there is a more sense of family in the east, or no?

[bigsquat]

I figured it was an American cultural thing to strive for independence. It takes travelling abroad to see what an American I am. JayBee's comments about Euros being more sensitive are also interesting. Maybe this is why the world over hates US tourists, because we are so unaware of the rules of the face game, which may even be played on a lower level in Europe, etc, that we appear disrespectful even when it's not intended?

jaybee,your quote about family has me thinking. being from the east coast, living out in the west coast, do you think there is a more sense of family in the east, or no

I also live on the West Coast- originally from Virginia. One theory is that (I think) more Americans emigrate East->West coast than emigrate to West->East coast. Thus, more people are living 3000 miles away from their families on the West coast, and may be a little less tightly knit with their families... Just a theory.

Obviously, I gotta learn how to deal with the face game in Thailand, and I am a newbie (only a 6 week trip). Another theory I had was that in the nature of most of my interactions with Thais (BGs, restaurant, owners, tourist services, etc.), I probably get to have the "Big" face as the rich tourist. So when I say that thais see I'm not playing the game, so they don't play either, maybe I'm just naive. Maybe they are playing the whole time, and I may or may not be stepping all over their face, but since I'm on top, part of the game for them is to not let on that I'm insulting them?

Ugh- I see how it gets confusing. I do feel that overall it strikes me as distasteful, though.

[JayBee]

Originally Posted by marc26

jaybee,
your quote about family has me thinking. being from the east coast, living out in the west coast, do you think there is a more sense of family in the east, or no?

Yes. For the white people, especially. I was the black sheep of the family. I knew from the time I was 6 years old that I didn't fit in to my world back East. By the time I was 20, I broke with my family, had nothing to do with them, and the only contact was through a girl who my mother knew, who would keep her informed about my whereabouts. After about a year, that led to patching things up with the family, because it was hard for my mother to not ever see me. One by one, I made my peace with my brothers and sisters and we are close in spirit, although separated by distance. It was many years before my father and I completely mended the split. It was not until the year before he died that we were 100% back together. He was very traditional and face was important to him, but face didn't matter to my mother at all.

So what you have, is on the West coast, a lot of people, who were misfits in the East where things are more traditional, and came to start a new life in the West. Overall, the attitude is very "live and let live" here. You stay out of my shit, and I'll stay out of yours. Face doesn't mean much. Nobody likes to lose face. But when it happens, it's like "so what, who gives a f*ck," and it is quickly forgotten, in most cases. You pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and start all over again. In some ways, it is a "what have you done for me lately" mentality, and people have short memories. Unless you are really tight with someone, then that is pretty much the way it works. But even with my friends, I have had major hassles sometimes, where out interests were in complete opposition to each other. But when the situations had played out, even though we had opposed each other and worked intensely against each other's interests, we kissed and made up. Because there was respect there. They respected that I had to do what was in my interests, and I respected that they had to do what was in their interests.

But in the last 15 years, there has been such an increase in the Hispanic and Asian populations here, and their families are tighter, but still maybe not as tight as where they came from. So a lot of it depends on where you came from and what your background is.

JayBee

[JayBee]

Originally Posted by bigsquat

It takes travelling abroad to see what an American I am.

I do feel that overall it strikes me as distasteful, though.

Travelling abroad gives you a much better appreciation of what it means to be an American and a much better appreciation of America, even with all the problems here.

As far as the thing with face, I respect it. I don't find it distasteful at all. It's just different. It is a different culture and a different way of thought. Apples aren't better than oranges, just different. At times it's a little tricky, because we are not used to thinking that way.

JayBee

[Sir Burr]

Originally Posted by JayBee

Travelling abroad gives you a much better appreciation of what it means to be an American JayBee

Expats "define" themselves by their nationality, yet the people of the same nationality in their home countries don't.
I'm from the UK and I define myself as English when I'm in Thailand.
Yet, when I'm in England, I'm just another Englishman amongst millions of others. Then we start to define ourselves by region ie. Londoner, Scouser, Geordie etc.
It's only expats that define themselves by their nationality.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

Expats "define" themselves by their nationality, yet the people of the same nationality in their home countries don't.
I'm from the UK and I define myself as English when I'm in Thailand.
Yet, when I'm in England, I'm just another Englishman amongst millions of others. Then we start to define ourselves by region ie. Londoner, Scouser, Geordie etc.
It's only expats that define themselves by their nationality.

well, ho else would you define yourself in a foreigh land, other than your nationality. you can leave your country, but you will still bring alot of your traits with you.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

Expats "define" themselves by their nationality, yet the people of the same nationality in their home countries don't.
I'm from the UK and I define myself as English when I'm in Thailand.
Yet, when I'm in England, I'm just another Englishman amongst millions of others. Then we start to define ourselves by region ie. Londoner, Scouser, Geordie etc.
It's only expats that define themselves by their nationality.

i live in the states. boston to be exact and we have such a strong proud loyalty to our city than anyplace in the states, i believ. no matter where i go, in this world, in my lifetime, i will always be a boston boy, with the same boston traits. i may learn from new cultures and become more sophisticated due to be educated by other people around the world, but where i come from, you just dont lose your hometwon traits, we will always be boston boys

[Dodger]

Marc what exactly are Boston Boys traits that in your opinion set them apart or are different to other american's from other states? genuine question from quizical guy from uk.

[seafox]

they talk funny compared to most of the USA. Sort of like trying to understand Brad Pitt in Snatch if you were from London.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by seafox

they talk funny compared to most of the USA. Sort of like trying to understand Brad Pitt in Snatch if you were from London.

that is actually very funny, seafox, laughed my ass off!

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Dodger

Marc what exactly are Boston Boys traits that in your opinion set them apart or are different to other american's from other states? genuine question from quizical guy from uk.

i guess traits were the wrong word. its just we have a very strong sense of loyalty where we come from. i know from going around the states, people who live with transplanted boston will tell you we are the biggest pains in the ass. always boston this... boston that... my friends at my old job use to say i think the streets were paved with gold in boston.

[Dodger]

Seafox, Brad Pitt's accent in Snatch was supposed to be Irish!!!!

[seafox]

I know it was supposed to be Irish but he was a gypsy also and they were supposed to have their own language and idioms and even the narrator admitted that he was not able to understand him all of the time.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by seafox

they talk funny compared to most of the USA. Sort of like trying to understand Brad Pitt in Snatch if you were from London.

ive been living out of boston for 12 years now(nyc) and when i 1st got to college in nyc, there was a girl that could not understand a word i said, my accent was so bad

[seafox]

Hi Marc26,

I am originally from New York and New Jersey and went to boarding school in northern Massachusets with a bunch of guys from South Boston and other areas of Massachusetts so have been all over that area of the country until I moved out to California. The guys at my school from South Boston were really funny as they were always fighting with each other but would forget about any fueds with each other and, if there was a quarrel with someone outside their group, they would immediately bond together against the outsider. Very loyal to each other but very competitive within their group.

I talk to a lot of people over the phone and it is always funny to talk to someone from the east coast now, especially boston and broklyn with the accents.

[marc26]

Originally Posted by seafox

Hi Marc26,

I am originally from New York and New Jersey and went to boarding school in northern Massachusets with a bunch of guys from South Boston and other areas of Massachusetts so have been all over that area of the country until I moved out to California. The guys at my school from South Boston were really funny as they were always fighting with each other but would forget about any fueds with each other and, if there was a quarrel with someone outside their group, they would immediately bond together against the outsider. Very loyal to each other but very competitive within their group.

I talk to a lot of people over the phone and it is always funny to talk to someone from the east coast now, especially boston and broklyn with the accents.

you just explained me and my friends. cracking on each other all the time. theres a line in Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams tells the professor that will's friend would take a bat to anyone's head if he asked, that is how we are. i also find guys from boston to be kinda rough around the edges but with alot of manners when it comes to the ladys. thats funny you say that about brooklyn, lived there for 7 years. i was in san fran, walking outside pac bell park, when a lady asks me "where you from, brooklyn or boston". good ears. my gf of 9 yeasr also had the worst, highest pitched brooklyn accent. where in new york you from and what school did you go to?

[Allybabba22]

Originally Posted by seafox

I know it was supposed to be Irish but he was a gypsy also and they were supposed to have their own language and idioms and even the narrator admitted that he was not able to understand him all of the time.

Thats funny because I could understand every word he said...555555..

[seafox]

Hi Ally,

Maybe it is just my hearing loss from scuba diving. Once I had seen the movie a couple of times I was able to understand most of what he said and could figure out the rest. Pretty funny movie and I still watch it once in a while.

[seafox]

Hi Marc26,

Sorry, had to leave last night and never got back on. I went to a privat school in Manhattan, Allen Stevenson(grades 1-8), then went to Phillips Academy at Andover. Lived in Manhattan from age 4-13 and then lived in small town in New Jersey 40 minutes from NYC. Worked in NYC for 4 years.