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#36
20-08-2005, 22:13
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I think the fact that gun crime has risen dramatically in the UK is testamount that the gun laws are absurd. As LIL said getting you hands on a weapon if you want one is easy enough and the only people stopped are law abiding citizens. The Dunblane appeal was simply a knee jerk reaction to appease the outcry at the time.
In the Sun today theres a small article on a new website set up by a South London Gang : http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2005380697,00.html Posing in pictures with weapons far more dangerous than the regulated few we could legally get in the past. Indeed all over the UK gun crime is rocketing. I grew up with guns and started shooting when I was about 6 years old and it was always a great social event where I lived...friends come round we would go out hunt ducks, pheasants, deer or just even target/clay pigeon shoot and have a great night afterwards in the bar (not that I joined in the drinking when I was 6  ). While we can still do that as rifles/shotguns have not been banned it was a nice change when a friend brought his handguns round for us to try, he is in the RAF and had a huge collection, colt python everyones favorite.More indications that banning guns is useless: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2640817.stm (Handgun use rose by 45 per cent since they were banned) http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...24/nguns24.xml (GUN crime has almost trebled in London during the past year and is soaring in other British cities, according to Home Office figures obtained by The Telegraph.) Those articles from 2002, and its only gotten worse since then. That guy who Tony Martin shot in the back...this is may seem cold but, atleast he wont be terrorizing anyone else again...live by the sword, die by the sword. Right now criminals go about knowing most people wont touch them.
__________________
A fool and his money are a girl's best friend. 
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#37
20-08-2005, 22:22
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About punisshing offenders, I agree totally! Some guys walk the same day, and guys just hold by the police, like me get in trouble...
About the dogs, I would never let fighting dogs come close to my children. I do agree also that even a nice breed like my setters, you never know. But if they come from a good breed, chances are low!  I always have English setters, never had problems. As a child I fell a sleep on the dog, and she would not move! And honestly, although she does her job very well, would you think she is dangerous? 
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#38
21-08-2005, 06:07
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[quote=Izeickl] The Dunblane appeal was simply a knee jerk reaction to appease the outcry at the time.
QUOTE] Sorry mate, can't agree. The guns used in Dunblane, and in Hungerford, were held legally. The laws as they stood put these weapons in the hands of these men. Taking them away was not what I would call a knee-jerk reaction, the outcry was perfectly valid. If some maniac locks my 6 year old kid in a classroom and starts taking potshots at them I am going to want answers. Shame on the authorities for not picking him out, but if the system don't work then scrap the system. Yes, gun crime is worse in the UK than ever. But I truly believe that the gun laws we have are effective. The next would-be-Rambo loser will not be able to hold his guns legally, and quite right in my opinion.
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#39
21-08-2005, 21:10
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[quote=steve@thaib]
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IMHO, knowing that when he breaks into a house, he might get shot and killed, is a great deterrent to the would-be burgular. Even for a criminal, there are easier and less risky ways to make money. But when there is little risk, then a lot of them will think "Why not? What's the worst that could happen?" There is a basic criminal mentality which says, "I will take what I want from you, unless you can stop me." A bullet can stop him, and he knows that well.
__________________
LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown. 
Last edited by JayBee : 21-08-2005 at 21:13.
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#40
21-08-2005, 21:14
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[quote=steve@thaib]
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Should we ban knifes or garden implements because some loony when into a school in Birmingham (I think) and starts trying to hack at the kids. The teacher was totally selfless in defending those kids and took some serious injuries trying to protect them. Why did he do that? Was it something that could have been prevented if this person had recieved what he so obviously needed. I am not trying to be negative here, I am trying to put another slant or side to this thread. It's just that I am quite opposed to the Nanny state in the UK imposing more and more restrictions on how I can live my daily life. Let's look more closely at the root of what sends such a person over the top and want to do the things that they do. Get to the bottom of it and sort it out!
__________________
The idea is to die young.........as late as possible. 
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#41
21-08-2005, 21:34
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[quote=JayBee]
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The problem with that is that the bullet isn't always stopped by the criminal. How much domestic violence is aggravated when there is a gun in the house. How many children get hurt playing with loaded guns in a domestic environment. Does the chance of you interfacing with a criminal stop at your front door? If not should you keep a firearm in your car? Your place of work? If I lived in a country where owning firearms was allowed by the general public, then I would use every other possible deterrent I could before resorting to using a firearm myself.
__________________
"管它黑貓白貓，會抓老鼠的就是好貓"
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#42
21-08-2005, 21:56
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[quote=Coolhand]
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You make some very good points Coolhand, if guns are readily available then thats the option you would go for first. The law allows for "reasonable force" to be used, is a gun reasonable force or could other means have been used. As for children getting hurt, you hear the owners saying that the gun is kept unloaded/in a secure place. If thats the case, how much use would it be in a face to face confrontation with a criminal. In the US, maybe people are more used to handling firearms, but in the UK most people would not have a clue what to do. A gun in untrained hands is a very deadly weapon, not just for whoever it is pointed at but for any innocent bystanders. Bullets don't know who is innocent and who is guilty, you may be on the other side of a wall/window . Collateral damage ????
__________________
Member of Phuket Hash House Harriers
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#43
21-08-2005, 23:27
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This thread has become very political, and i dont normally bother to get political on internet forums ("When in a bar (or forum) dont talk about politics or religion" Has always been a moto of mine!). But i had to make this small point about how I feel!
A gun in anyones hand is a very dangerous weapon! Weather they are trained or not, makes only a small difference to the affect of the weapon when used! A trained person will be more dangerous when using the gun, than the un-trained! From the statistics I see, the cases of accidental death by a child, from a 'family owned gun' are low. Maybe because most adults in gun owning society's, have the intellagence or thought of mind to place the gun unloaded in a locked place. Therefore removing all danger from the metal object. But the problem always will be with the people who dont have this 'intellagence' or have got to a point (for whatever reason e.g. Depression, criminal lifestlye, watching too many action films or following Chalton Heston's school of thought) where they want to use the gun, or need the gun around, loaded. The fact that the most used method to suicide in any walk of life, is the easiest method at hand, must be a good indicator as to the impact of firearms on any society. For instance, the most used method of students/school children is hanging. But for farmers it is a shotgun blast to the head. I know that if I was going to commit suicide, or if i was mentally unstable, it would be harder to me to come to terms with what i was doing if I had to prepare the rope and gallows, then to pick up a shotgun and use it. Should guns be banned or not is not a question that I have to decide on in Britain. But in my point of view, any guns should be taken out of public use and be stored in sucure locations. They should only be given to licenced people under police supervision and returned to the secure point after use! No firearms stored on private property. And I would ban all replica firearms too!
__________________
"WILL WORK FOR BEER AND BG'S"
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#44
22-08-2005, 05:20
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[quote=steve@thaib]
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The thing is though if your a maniac and want to go on a gun rampage it isnt that hard to accomplish even if guns are illegal...You could also kill the same number of children by driving your car into a school playground at lunchtime. The thing about the Dunblane incident was that he would NOT have had the guns if it were not for Freemasonry as he was deemed unfit but a quick Handshake with the police and hes got them.
__________________
A fool and his money are a girl's best friend.
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#45
22-08-2005, 07:02
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Heh ok no secret handshakes round here.
In regards to the police tho, they DID have the power to take them off him, but the Handshakes stopped it...thus the head of police in Stirling ended up resigning and all sorts of controversy ensued..
__________________
A fool and his money are a girl's best friend.
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#46
22-08-2005, 11:26
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[quote=Coolhand]
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Your points are welltaken, CH. I understand them, having been pro-gun prohibition for many years. The reasons for being against guns are, of course, suicides, accidents, crimes of passion, and the odd nut case who goes mental(we used to say goes "postal" since it has happened to so many postal workers). I don't think parents with children ought to keep firearms in a house. But if a child has a parent who is an idiot, is that society's fault? Children whose parents are irresposible will always suffer, and gun accidents is just another case of that. As for suicides, if a person wants to kill himself, there are so many ways to do it. Pills is easier. Jumping off a bridge is easier and quicker(no forms to fill out). In college, my best friend dropped out. Less than 3 months later, he was at home. His Mom said, "Breakfast will be ready soon, Mike". He said, "I'll be downstairs. Call me when it's ready." He went to the basement and put a bullet in his head with his Grandfather's antique pistol. It was sad. We all felt bad. But if it wasn't that, it probably would have been something else. I understood his problems and why he thought that "there was no way out." In a way, he was right, but you would have had to know his whole history to understand why. He was a kind soul, had a great laugh, was exceptionally handsome(the girls all loved him), fit as a fiddle, and probably tougher than any man I've ever known. He should have been a boxer! It was a great waste, but the psychological pain was just too much for him to bear. BTW, his mother blamed me and his other friends on account of we all did drugs together, but he stopped doing the drugs when he went home to his mother's house. In January, when I was in LOS, a friend jumped off the GG Bridge. Similar story. You can't stop people from killing themselves when they feel that way. I don't advocate that everyone should go get a gun. Some people are mentally unstable, and should not keep them. Guns shouldn't be kept around children. But if a burglar doesn't know whether the person has a gun or not, then he has to be more careful. Not every one has to have a gun to make gun ownership an effective deterrent. And if people know that if they piss off a person for no good reason, he might just go back to his car or house, return with a gun and blow their brains out, then people tend to be a little more respectful of one another, IMHO. JayBee 
__________________
LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
Last edited by JayBee : 22-08-2005 at 11:41.
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#47
22-08-2005, 22:26
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America's government and most laws suck. The NRA are a bunch of cowboys and everyone citiizinws should be disarmed. I've never seen an episode of FBI files or Forensic detectives outside of America. I disagree with Jaybee, A gun is the easiest way to end ones life. One shot in the head thats it. A matter of seconds. It takes alot more courage and pain to eat pills or jump of a buildiing. Last edited by IreMark : 22-08-2005 at 22:29.
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#48
22-08-2005, 23:46
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Quote:
Quote:
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Well all I can say is that I hope car crime is less common in the US than it is here. With the ammount of car thefts in the UK, I would dread to think what would happen if those cars had guns kept in them as well. Another point here is that if your house is broken into when you are not there, but there is a firearm in the property. That firearm could be stolen and used in another, more dangerous crime - although I do accept the mitigation of secure storage for guns.
__________________
"管它黑貓白貓，會抓老鼠的就是好貓"
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#49
23-08-2005, 00:01
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As it happens Coolhand, there are 1.1 million cars stolen in America annually. So let's hope they don't keep guns in the glovebox
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#50
23-08-2005, 00:04
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Incidentally, most of the South Africans I met when I was out there kept guns in the car, they take potshots at speed cameras and I believe I could warm to that as a concept...
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#51
23-08-2005, 00:51
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Yeah - especially if it is one of the handheld ones
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#52
23-08-2005, 13:52
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Quote:
Although it is not the best idea IMHO for people with children to keep guns, many of them do, so there is no way of knowing if a family with children has guns. Anyone except a convicted felon has a right to own firearms. Laws differ from state to state, but, in general, it is lawful to carry firearms in a locked trunk, but not in your glovebox, or passenger compartment. In Texas, it is lawful for most people to carry a concealed weapon. A lot of women carry small pistols in their bags. in most states, it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon(unless you have a license to do so)), knives as well as guns, but it is legal to carry it if it is clearly visible, and not in any way concealed from view. As far as criminals stealing guns, they don't really need to, since they are readily available. But as has been stated by others, criminals never have a problem getting guns for a price, legal or illegal. In general, the criminals in the US are much more heavily armed than police, and possess more powerful and deadly weaponry. The police would never stand a chance against them except for the fact that the police have superior numbers, and are better organized.
__________________
LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
Last edited by JayBee : 23-08-2005 at 14:03.
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