rumsfield resigns!!!

[marc26]

just on the tape
rumsfield resigned
thats a step forward

[TanMan]

I wonder what's next. The elections aren't even over yet....

[Lucky7]

Yeah but everyone knows **** Cheney is still the real architect of the iraq war.

[Petter]

i aint being smart paulie..but who gives a shit? maybe the americans.....
ij

Think the name is international politics,and connection to cooperation between different contrys and diffrent strategys and maybee diffrent diplomacy.

For some its a big diffrence

[Petter]

Yeah but everyone knows **** Cheney is still the real architect of the iraq war

Nja..wasent it Rumsfelt who had the strategy of the Iraq war ?

[marc26]

i dont know who said?

who gives a shit, paulie

well, apparently 80% of this board gives a shit because all we have talked about over this last year is the war in iraq and america's foreign policy
so i assumed, maybe i am wrong, that people would have interest in this

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Petter

Nja..wasent it Rumsfelt who had the strategy of the Iraq war ?

people will say cheney because they believe he profits from Haliburton
i believe it was the whole screwed up administration

[t0rn]

likely not a reflection on you M26, but i don't care either (yet!)..... depends on who replaces him

[Petter]

people will say cheney because they believe he profits from Haliburton
i believe it was the whole screwed up administration

Yes i know but Rumsfelt was still the leader in Pentagon.
Dont know about Cheney profits personally ,but Halliburton did get änd have some big contracts without possibility for others to check it out.

But i supose it was the a reason in the first place when he was a dir in Halliburton.
That He had al the right connections politicaly.

[Petter]

likely not a reflection on you M26, but i don't care either (yet!)..... depends on who replaces him

Isent it former ex CIA-director Robert Gates who is nominated

[Lucky7]

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Gates...tenure as Interim Dean of the George Bush School of Government and Public Service at Texas A&M from 1999 to 2001.

LOLOLO!!! Don't like him already That's kinda like having Ted Kennedy as President of Alcoholics Anonymous.

[TanMan]

Yep, another friend of the family. Another yes man.

The TanMan

[LivinLOS]

Well he wouldnt pick an opponent would he.. Of course hes going to pick someone he has worked with and has influence over..

I have a concern that a changing political landscape will leave those on the ground both as combatants and the populations that have been thrown into a civil war they didnt ask for, out in the cold.. To gain and retain my respect Democrats have to be strong and have a clear plan, they need to be realists and understand they are in a conflict and there are difficult problems to solve to come out of this mess.. Just packing it in doesnt help.

I think what needs to come about over the longer term is a foriegn policy that uses more carrot and less stick.. Trying to coerce and subjigate countries, while it may work short term, builds intense resentment. Its not simple and its not easy but Ithink the media environment is exposing the pressure tactics more and thats not helping.

If you think about the cost so far of the war and the population of the country concerned, they could have had every family recieved a free house with all luxuries and amienties added.. Brand each one with the stars and stripes.. With no loss of life.. With an economic net gain for the US contractors given the job.. Of course thats a utopian pipe dream but looking at how the money has been spent I wonder which was the bigger waste and which would create a bigger impression on the locals..

[nelsonone]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Well he wouldnt pick an opponent would he.. Of course hes going to pick someone he has worked with and has influence over..

I have a concern that a changing political landscape will leave those on the ground both as combatants and the populations that have been thrown into a civil war they didnt ask for, out in the cold.. To gain and retain my respect Democrats have to be strong and have a clear plan, they need to be realists and understand they are in a conflict and there are difficult problems to solve to come out of this mess.. Just packing it in doesnt help.

I think what needs to come about over the longer term is a foriegn policy that uses more carrot and less stick.. Trying to coerce and subjigate countries, while it may work short term, builds intense resentment. Its not simple and its not easy but Ithink the media environment is exposing the pressure tactics more and thats not helping.

If you think about the cost so far of the war and the population of the country concerned, they could have had every family recieved a free house with all luxuries and amienties added.. Brand each one with the stars and stripes.. With no loss of life.. With an economic net gain for the US contractors given the job.. Of course thats a utopian pipe dream but looking at how the money has been spent I wonder which was the bigger waste and which would create a bigger impression on the locals..

spot on LiL......my view exactly.....too late just to pack up and leave a vacuum of human suffering.......gotta be a plan....and a good one

Count up the $$$ spent on the war.....the divide it by the number of Iraqis.....Lil's plan combined with oil revenues would have overcome many more obstacles than the bloody war has.....al that has done is to create a world wide terrorist network......imagine how LiL's p[lan would have nipped that in the bud......too too simple......and not enough money going to white house govt mates!!!

[swiftdave]

Yeah, I agree with both LiL and N1, but unfortunately no money would have ever made it into the hands of the average Iraqi. Similarily, embargos didn't hurt anyone except the people we wanted to help. Oil for Food was a fiasco and only mad Saddam richer. Too many pigs in the trough in every diplomatic community. I'm sure there a diplomats that are good hearted and honest, but there all painted by the same brush nowadays.
Like Serpico, one good cop surrounded by bad cops.

[Denver]

If Congress approves the $71 billion emergency dosh they have been talking about to pay to continue US efforts here and in Afghanistan, the 'alledged' new total for the war expenses will be $439 billion.

This is from about April by the Congressional Research Services, not sure what it is now in November.

$320 Bill for here, $89 Bill for Afghanistan and apparently $26 Bill for enhanced security, including combat air patrols over the United Sates. Not sure what the US of K is spending.

I can still do you an AK for $300 with some bullets my friend. OK, OK You strike a hard bargain my 'special' friend............$299.

I'm not being a pedantic b'stard, well maybe a little bit, but obviously living here and employing Iraqis I see what they are getting out of this massive......and it is massive expenditure. An Iraqi Army and Police Force that is corrupt, inefficient and scared of the Militias.............THAT...have also been paid for by this funding. My Iraqi lads on average, who live in Baghdad get 3-4 hours of electricity a day and intermittent water supplies, massive inflation, a black market and the bombs.........Not all are aimed at the 'occupiers' - One of my lads lost his Brother in Law to a bomb while shopping for his family this afternoon.

They say to me........"Mr Denver, at least under Saddam we had food, water, electricity and knew which party membership card to carry around!"

Just saying it as I see it, and it ain't pretty!

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Denver

If Congress approves the $71 billion emergency dosh they have been talking about to pay to continue US efforts here and in Afghanistan, the 'alledged' new total for the war expenses will be $439 billion.

This is from about April by the Congressional Research Services, not sure what it is now in November.

$320 Bill for here, $89 Bill for Afghanistan and apparently $26 Bill for enhanced security, including combat air patrols over the United Sates. Not sure what the US of K is spending.

I can still do you an AK for $300 with some bullets my friend. OK, OK You strike a hard bargain my 'special' friend............$299.

I'm not being a pedantic b'stard, well maybe a little bit, but obviously living here and employing Iraqis I see what they are getting out of this massive......and it is massive expenditure. An Iraqi Army and Police Force that is corrupt, inefficient and scared of the Militias.............THAT...have also been paid for by this funding. My Iraqi lads on average, who live in Baghdad get 3-4 hours of electricity a day and intermittent water supplies, massive inflation, a black market and the bombs.........Not all are aimed at the 'occupiers' - One of my lads lost his Brother in Law to a bomb while shopping for his family this afternoon.

They say to me........"Mr Denver, at least under Saddam we had food, water, electricity and knew which party membership card to carry around!"

Just saying it as I see it, and it ain't pretty!

im not saying anything that you say isnt true
but there is alot of iraqui's here in vancouver and they hate saddam
jeez, at my favorite donair place, these guys are great, i play soccer with them
one of them almost jumped over the counter and killed some dude who said they were better off with saddam

[Einheriar]

Well..maybe new winds are blowing...Bush are allready cutting his losses to try to have the Rep's stay in power....

I think this resignation is good in many ways..and may act as a 2 edged sword for the rep's...more attenttion will be paid to "what the strategy" of the war is..and in my own country it will most certainly be viewed as our own goverment did a horrible mistake, when entering the war on Bush'es behalf..

Lets see.

[Denver]

Originally Posted by marc26

im not saying anything that you say isnt true
but there is alot of iraqui's here in vancouver and they hate saddam
jeez, at my favorite donair place, these guys are great, i play soccer with them
one of them almost jumped over the counter and killed some dude who said they were better off with saddam

Paul, believe me when I say this:

It is all true, well, what is happening here is. I can't vouch for the truth of the money that is being spent, can only read so called 'official' reports.

To a man, everyone I have talked to now know what Saddam was all about. I recently drove three of my lads past one of SH's palaces at Camp Victory, it's fcukin' hoooge, then past each of his two Sons places, then past his sons wives palaces, then past the guests palaces, then past the detention camp, torture camp with swimming pool for the guards. They would never have got near these places under his regime. They know they are totally happy he has gone and good riddance......................BUT, for all that they had what they needed to get by on a daily basis for thier families.

The infrastructure has been blown to bits and for all the money being spent here it just ain't getting halfway back to what it was......nearly four years later! If you have a baby that needs formula to be kept fresh in the fridge or a fan to keep you cool at night and you only get a few hours of electricity a day when it used to be a given, it gets frustrating and they tell me as much. The local hospitals are really struggling.

Every week we see lovely colourful graphs, bar-graphs, pie-charts, demographics of this and that project to get more potable water to the urban areas, oil to the power stations to generate electricity. Great, might as well give that peice of paper to the wife to fan her kid with, it's probaly as effective.

I haven't the answers, who has? I think America and the UK thought they had. They keep throwing yours and mine (Well, maybe not mine) money at it and.............OK, another scenario. Spend wads of cash on Iraq or Afghanistan, how can you re-coup tax on that money back into the countries treasury coffers, give the contract to an American or British company (Mine included) and tax them on it. Pay $100 billion, take back $40 billion in tax. All the while hoping that Iran, North Korea, Pakistan and others don't decide to join the party or we would really be up that creek called Sh1t, less the paddles.

Yes, Iraqis in Jordan will rip your head off and spit down your neck for talking about SH in the way I may have here. An Iraqi in Baghdad will give you a wry smile and say "They ain't in Baghdad!"

Talk ill of SH in the wrong bar and end up looking like bloody seive!

It's going to take a hell of alot more money and much, much more time yet............I don't know what is going to run out first!!!!!!!!

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Denver

Paul, believe me when I say this:

It is all true, well, what is happening here is. I can't vouch for the truth of the money that is being spent, can only read so called 'official' reports.

To a man, everyone I have talked to now know what Saddam was all about. I recently drove three of my lads past one of SH's palaces at Camp Victory, it's fcukin' hoooge, then past each of his two Sons places, then past his sons wives palaces, then past the guests palaces, then past the detention camp, torture camp with swimming pool for the guards. They would never have got near these places under his regime. They know they are totally happy he has gone and good riddance......................BUT, for all that they had what they needed to get by on a daily basis for thier families.

The infrastructure has been blown to bits and for all the money being spent here it just ain't getting halfway back to what it was......nearly four years later! If you have a baby that needs formula to be kept fresh in the fridge or a fan to keep you cool at night and you only get a few hours of electricity a day when it used to be a given, it gets frustrating and they tell me as much. The local hospitals are really struggling.

Every week we see lovely colourful graphs, bar-graphs, pie-charts, demographics of this and that project to get more potable water to the urban areas, oil to the power stations to generate electricity. Great, might as well give that peice of paper to the wife to fan her kid with, it's probaly as effective.

I haven't the answers, who has? I think America and the UK thought they had. They keep throwing yours and mine (Well, maybe not mine) money at it and.............OK, another scenario. Spend wads of cash on Iraq or Afghanistan, how can you re-coup tax on that money back into the countries treasury coffers, give the contract to an American or British company (Mine included) and tax them on it. Pay $100 billion, take back $40 billion in tax. All the while hoping that Iran, North Korea, Pakistan and others don't decide to join the party or we would really be up that creek called Sh1t, less the paddles.

Yes, Iraqis in Jordan will rip your head off and spit down your neck for talking about SH in the way I may have here. An Iraqi in Baghdad will give you a wry smile and say "They ain't in Baghdad!"

Talk ill of SH in the wrong bar and end up looking like bloody seive!

It's going to take a hell of alot more money and much, much more time yet............I don't know what is going to run out first!!!!!!!!

again, i would never even think that what you said was the truth
and like you, i was just going by what was told me by what i consider my iraqi friends over here
anyways, we all know it is a screwed up mess, and im glad you are getting out soon and hope to see you in january

[Denver]

Originally Posted by marc26

again, i would never even think that what you said was the truth........Thanks! 555555555
and like you, i was just going by what was told me by what i consider my iraqi friends over here
anyways, we all know it is a screwed up mess, and im glad you are getting out soon and hope to see you in january

Hope to see you too mate..............It's your turn for the beers, I got the last ones.......No, No Paul..........I did. 5555555555 Stay safe.

D

[marc26]

Originally Posted by Denver

Hope to see you too mate..............It's your turn for the beers, I got the last ones.......No, No Paul..........I did. 5555555555 Stay safe.

D

the last time i was with, im pretty neither one of us could remember who got the beers
that was a wild one!!