Thai Mentality

[Sirgezza]

I've read on various posts about Thai people not wanting to lose face. I've also read that you should never get in to a fight with a Thai.

Are these two statements related?

When I was in Pattaya a couple of years ago, a Thai man shot his wife (a BG) dead whilst she was at work. Could this have been an example of him taking things a bit far due to him losing face. Apparantly he had told her to stop working at the bar.

[LivinLOS]

A pretty fair assesment...

Try to get the name of any telephone operator that promises you a technician visit etc.. They wont do it cause you can call out thier failure if the other person doesnt turn up..

I have also had the run and hide often enough that its funny (if your not steeming mad by then).. Happy to help service, you ask a question that they dont know the answer to, loss of face to admit that (or even ask for help from coworkers) so result is mumble something you cant hear and walk off and hide until your gone... You can empty a service department this way if you have a nice complex question..

Ask directions upcountry and people will just make them up... to admit that they dont know the way makes them look like a country bumpkin and you are driving a car.. so result is even if you dont know the way make up something driver drives away.. Face saved all round..

Takes a bit of getting used to..

[geespot]

Even simpler try to get a thai to say yes or no, when you ask a closed question

G

[Mr Floatplane]

"Consider this. Thai mechanics for airliners, and Thai pilots, and Thai air traffic controllers"

Thai Aircraft Mechanics !!!! Man they gave me the run around! They were incapable of admitting that they didn’t know how to fix something’s…Fine, everyone runs into problems they can't solve – what annoyed me is when they would then deny there was a problem!

Too many instances – one when the undercarriage wouldn’t retract correctly, they then said it was my fault for using the “Up/Down” selector incorrectly - and for flying too fast!!! (I asked them what the max VLO speed was for the aircraft (Velocity for Landing gear operations) and they had no idea what I was talking about anyhow!)

They always wanted to save face, which was all too dangerous in aviation.
They would tell me that they maintained the aircraft in “the Thai way” or by “
the Thai style”…And silly me had always thought that mechalical equipment was oblivious to the culture in which they operated…I always thought an aeroplane had to be maintained in accordance with published directives based on time in operation! Oh well……

I never managed to get the rest of my head around the saving face concept and effectivly quit, to save my body and that of the paying public.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by Mr Floatplane

They always wanted to save face, which was all too dangerous in aviation.
They would tell me that they maintained the aircraft in “the Thai way” or by “
the Thai style”…

I think that means that the monk has been along and blessed the plane.. there will be 3 white dots above the pilot seat and some writing on there too.. Cant fail

Incedentally my buddy came through BKK yesterday.. He recons the Phuket air plane that had to return empty from Europe due to the passenger ban has been sitting there untouched.. this time he comes through its missing an engine from the wing.. reminded him of lagos airport !!!

[stevem]

[quote=Mr Floatplane]"Consider this. Thai mechanics for airliners, and Thai pilots, and Thai air traffic controllers"/QUOTE]

Hiya Guy, hows the knee coming along???

Have had some very interesting conversations with farang, mostly aussie captains flying for a major SE Asian international airline over the past few years. Most of them I wouldnt even post on a public board, would scare the shit out off most people.

[Mr Floatplane]

Hi Steve,

Don’t want to hijack the thread here, but as you asked:
My knee much better in the just last few days…After every test you can think of, (went through everything from STDs to tropical fungus, to arctic parasites!) an operation, and 5 days in hospital, they still don’t know what it was.

Problem was a blood reading, indicating some sort of infection, which was through the roof, yet other than the knee, I was fine…The many doctors said they just don’t understand why I was not very very sick with that reading.

They said either I had something very strange, or that “you have a very usual immune system.” (Personally, I think they stuffed up the tests!!! Maybe I would have been better in a Thai hospital after all – maybe this is a case of Aussie doctors saving face!!!! On second thoughts, no, at least they had the honesty to say “we don’t know” and “we don’t understand”)

There was also a secondary blood indication that I may have had some sort of virus, but they never found any direct evidence of one, and the secondary reading is back to normal now, so whatever it was they are certain it has gone, and with some physiotherapy I will be fine.
The humorous part is that the doctors would now like me to do some test in Seattle!!!! Not because I need to, but because they think “it would be interesting.”
I don’t know what that is all about, couldn’t understand their medical jargon…Strange. I don’t know what they would do there that they can’t do here, but as I am on the mend, to hell with more tests! Doctors, Shisshhhh!

-Better get back to the Face theme…Is the saving face concept typical of Asia in general, or only to Thailand?

In the ATPL theory (license needed to fly for airlines) there is a Human Factors exam. In the study notes they go into the authority gradient, or hierarchy, within flight crews. The Captain is obviously the boss, but he still needs to be able to listen to the advice and suggestions of the other crew – and they HAVE to be able to tell him if he is wrong. It is generally acknowledged that Australian crews have a fairly flat authority gradient.
-Interestingly, Asian crews have the steepest .

Friend of mine who is a Captain with a major Asian Airline (non Thai) keeps telling me he thinks he could fly into a mountain and his Asian crew would say not a word, because, he says, it is not in their culture to challenge someone with more authority…Obviously I think he is carried away with his suggestion, but it is an interesting observation….He says they are very difficult to work with, as they wont work with him as a TEAM, but as his SERVANTS (his words). Probably that relationship works fine in some environments, but certainly not in others.

In trying to preserve his authority, his crew succeeds only in increasing his work load.…So this whole saving face deal starts to get even more complicated and twisted when it is a superiors face you are trying to save even over your own!

[Mr Floatplane]

"there will be 3 white dots above the pilot seat..."

...would that be directly above the joystick?"

[Captain]

Originally Posted by Mr Floatplane

Hi Steve,

Friend of mine who is a Captain with a major Asian Airline (non Thai) keeps telling me he thinks he could fly into a mountain and his Asian crew would say not a word, because, he says, it is not in their culture to challenge someone with more authority…Obviously I think he is carried away with his suggestion, but it is an interesting observation….He says they are very difficult to work with, as they wont work with him as a TEAM, but as his SERVANTS (his words). Probably that relationship works fine in some environments, but certainly not in others.

In trying to preserve his authority, his crew succeeds only in increasing his work load.…So this whole saving face deal starts to get even more complicated and twisted when it is a superiors face you are trying to save even over your own!

That is what happened with the Thai airplane in Nepal a few years ago.
I often play golf with Belgian pilots (ex-Sabena) now flying for Asian airlines and what they tell me...

[stevem]

Originally Posted by Captain

That is what happened with the Thai airplane in Nepal a few years ago.
I often play golf with Belgian pilots (ex-Sabena) now flying for Asian airlines and what they tell me...

And also the Peruvian 737, FO just watched as the captain flew it into terrain.

[stevem]

Originally Posted by Mr Floatplane

The humorous part is that the doctors would now like me to do some test in Seattle!!!!

Hope it sorts itself out, but are the doctors going to pay for you to go to Seattle.

About CRM, have you the thread on pprune about Korean??

[Mr Floatplane]

Nope. Wasn’t my post on pprune - not sure which Korean post you are referring to there as I just did a search on that sight and too much came up on them!!

“not a safe place. Ying and Yang are not well balanced there. Another "low" approach outside 3 miles.
400 ft about 5 miles on Base.... 15 violations of SOP`s and limitations. What comes next? Watch that place.”

I’m meant to be going to the U.S for some training, but certainly wont be paying for any medical expenses there! Broke enough! Anyhow, no point in it as I am now on the mend...
Perhaps the Aussie doctors were trying to palm me off and save face?