Phuket Gazette: German to be deported over no work permit

[Mr Lucky]

Phuket Gazette: German to be deported over no work permit

This is a scary story! Just shows that foreign investors are always at risk in Thailand. This poor guy's Thai partners obviously read the manual on "How to get rid of your Farang business partner in three easy steps".

[LivinLOS]

Pure setup..

Of course this kind of rip off biz dealing only normally happens to noobs on Nanai.. Which makes this all the stranger for being on Phra Barimi !!

:p !!

[Mav]

Another farang heads home with his tail between his legs

[ATMwalking]

Surely he lived on Nanai If there was a conspiracy, sounds like he was screwed by his fellow countryman.

Amazingly it is just screw up after screw up in the handling of his work permit and case. Haven't heard of one going this bad. Worst case scenario stuff.

But seeing as you can't get a work permit for being an architect, he should have had a thai one on the project. Then he simply would have been meeting with a company he hired to build something for him. So the thai architect would have been showing his customer something about pipes for customer approval. The thai architect would then direct the workers. Nothing illegal about that. No work permit needed.

At any rate, doing projects like this is complicated here in thailand and shouldn't be taken on by newbies. Especially given the current climate where foreign developers are not exactly welcomed.

[LivinLOS]

And you really believe that sudden swoop site inspection.. Done after his Thai partner pushes to get him on the job.. was all above board and by the book..

For gods sake Chris !!! When was the last time you EVER saw immigration officers visit a building site ??

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

And you really believe that sudden swoop site inspection.. Done after his Thai partner pushes to get him on the job.. was all above board and by the book..

For gods sake Chris !!! When was the last time you EVER saw immigration officers visit a building site ??

Thai partner? Where does it say thai partner? The only reference is to a German partner. Yet another case of blaming thais.

I'm not saying that this wasn't a set-up. What I am saying is this guy screwed himself first, which is often the problem.

[LivinLOS]

Apologies.. I read development partner and made the leap..

Sure he ****ed up.. But someone helped **** him up..

That someone has used the Thai system by paying bent immigration officials, to pull him in.. Its the whole system of corruption and having purchasable Thai officialdom thats here.

He should have upped the offer fast !!

[Nicke]

I dont think it was his German partner, I also believe this didnt happen out of the sky at random, someone has been pushing for it in the background.

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Apologies.. I read development partner and made the leap..

Sure he ****ed up.. But someone helped **** him up..

That someone has used the Thai system by paying bent immigration officials, to pull him in.. Its the whole system of corruption and having purchasable Thai officialdom thats here.

He should have upped the offer fast !!

That is the thing. Some one was playing the game on him and he didn't play back. Normally something like this could get cleared up quickly and quietly for some baht.

It was actually one of the better Gazette articles in a while. Back to the old style of funny and reading between the lines.

Basically his partner sabotaged his work permit renewal. Then got him to the site. Had the inspectors there. Then the partner likely feed him some very bad advice about how to handle the case. Likely gave him bad advice about changing lawyers. At the same time made a friendly offer to buy the guy out.

But the bigger thing to me is in general farang are not wanted to do projects like this right now. Everything is stacked against you from begining to end. For example the article said the german owns the land. Well that must be through a company and using a proxy over a thai shareholder. That is basically illegal now or on its way to being illegal. All the BS with work permits and so on. I look at it as Thailand no longer wants foreign investment, so don't force the issue.

[LivinLOS]

I dont know if Nicke knows more about this than hes saying ?? I will ask some spies also..

Everything is stacked against you from begining to end. For example the article said the german owns the land. Well that must be through a company and using a proxy over a thai shareholder. That is basically illegal now or on its way to being illegal. All the BS with work permits and so on. I look at it as Thailand no longer wants foreign investment, so don't force the issue.

Not trying to simply perpetuate the running Nanai Noobs joke.. But isnt that an exact about face from what started the Nanai Noobs thing ??

Back here http://www.phuket-info.com/forums/ne...ighlight=nanai

Kev and I said that you should be really careful who you do biz with, that its much more dangerous, that the odds were stacked against you, that the whole climate was one where it was easy to get shot at or deported.. Your response was that it was fine to scare the noobies on Nanai but really it was all clear, and people who have these problems bring it on themselves.

Does this mean we have convinced you !!

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

I dont know if Nicke knows more about this than hes saying ?? I will ask some spies also..



Not trying to simply perpetuate the running Nanai Noobs joke.. But isnt that an exact about face from what started the Nanai Noobs thing ??

Back here http://www.phuket-info.com/forums/ne...ighlight=nanai

Kev and I said that you should be really careful who you do biz with, that its much more dangerous, that the odds were stacked against you, that the whole climate was one where it was easy to get shot at or deported.. Your response was that it was fine to scare the noobies on Nanai but really it was all clear, and people who have these problems bring it on themselves.

Does this mean we have convinced you !!

That is a accurate summary, but I don't see what I've said as conflicting. Even though when I was typing it I thought it could read as such.

My latest comment was more at a macro level and just stating facts of the current government policies. That is what I was referring to in the quote you made. Especially related to land ownership & development.

My earlier comment was more of a micro level one...at the owner operator level. More like a mom & pop shop, restaurant/bar, or some specialized business like making boat sails. Something that is small, doesn't stick out too much, and isn't very capital intensive.

Doing a condo development on prime land attracts all sorts of attention you don't want, especially given the macro conditions right now. So it goes with my previous post comment of screwing yourself. Besides that, from what I know of property development, you need to know how to play rough no matter where you are.

[Mr Lucky]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

Thai partner? Where does it say thai partner? The only reference is to a German partner. Yet another case of blaming thais.

The article doesn't mention a Thai partner, but of course he had one (or more). In order for him to own land, this had to be a Thai registered company.

Remember, it's required for a Thai company to be owned 51% by Thais. I bet you anything you like that the Thais in his company got tired of being "nominee" shareholders and someone told them how they could get rid of their farang.

I highly doubt this was arranged at a distance by a partner in Germany. He'll be next if he ever shows his face in Thailand.

[LivinLOS]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

That is a accurate summary, but I don't see what I've said as conflicting. Even though when I was typing it I thought it could read as such.

My latest comment was more at a macro level and just stating facts of the current government policies. That is what I was referring to in the quote you made. Especially related to land ownership & development.

My earlier comment was more of a micro level one...at the owner operator level. More like a mom & pop shop, restaurant/bar, or some specialized business like making boat sails. Something that is small, doesn't stick out too much, and isn't very capital intensive.

Doing a condo development on prime land attracts all sorts of attention you don't want, especially given the macro conditions right now. So it goes with my previous post comment of screwing yourself. Besides that, from what I know of property development, you need to know how to play rough no matter where you are.

So no, your not going to say I was right..

Damn so close

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by Mr Lucky

The article doesn't mention a Thai partner, but of course he had one (or more). In order for him to own land, this had to be a Thai registered company.

Remember, it's required for a Thai company to be owned 51% by Thais. I bet you anything you like that the Thais in his company got tired of being "nominee" shareholders and someone told them how they could get rid of their farang.

I highly doubt this was arranged at a distance by a partner in Germany. He'll be next if he ever shows his face in Thailand.

Here we go again. Blame the thais.

As you said they were likely "nominess". No mention of true thai partners. The Chanote could have been held under a company before the recent crackdown. So the 6 thia partners very well could just be 6 random thais off the street.

I've seen plenty of farang screw farang. Often fellow countrymen. The only partner mentioned is a fellow German. It was his partner that called him to the site. The german partner now has control of the project. The german partner is the only one that seems to be benefiting. Where does a thai fit into the equation? Oh it is invented. but that's ok because there must be an evil thai cause there as there is always an evil thai lurking in the shadows isn't there.

Based on the article, there is no reason to think a thai is benefiting. Why can't you accept that a farang is just screwing another farang?

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

So no, your not going to say I was right..

Damn so close

We only differ on that I say it is possible to do business here and be ok.

Were we do keep agreeing is generally it is just better not to do business in Thailand (or at least phuket) if at all possible. Generally not worth the risk.

But I will agree in this case for this type of business you are right.

[LivinLOS]

Sure.. I can believe that and see it all the time.. The system here is built for rich or connected to screw others..

I see no reason why farangs are not equally guilty at using these methods to screw each other.. Hence my opinion of being involved in any business thats not pocket money.

EDIT :: that was to post 2up.. Took ages to reply.

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by LivinLOS

Sure.. I can believe that and see it all the time.. The system here is built for rich or connected to screw others..

It sure earns its ranking as one of the most corrupt countries.

Thai businessmen that I have met spend a lot of time building their contacts with influential people. Both for offensive and defensive reasons.

If there was less corruption, then those efforts could just go into development. But that would also level the playing field. Something the "haves" don't want for the "don't haves". Even better when the "don't haves" can be made to have even less. It is very much a zero sum game mentality.

[LivinLOS]

Theres 2 good points there..

The first is the defensive corruption v offensive corruption. I personally see gov officers feathering the nest by taking sums to get the job done, better, faster, in the applicants favour (but still within the guidelines) a fairly minor form of corruption. Sure it holds down those without the money to start and helps those with money get more, but its less offensive.

What is much worse IMO is paying someone to attack another.. The cop paid to plant a bag of pills in someones room, the sjakedown by those in power for bribe money, those aspects are far worse.

Also as you say corruption enables old money and power elites to keep that power and hold it more.. I have a feeling this is one reason why Gov systems seem so xenophobic against farangs and farang biz growth, they know that we upset the applecart, dont only employ the 'right people' it destabilizes the existing power elite systems and creates a more level playing field. We tend to take people at face value and let people prove themselves more than insist all counter staff must have white skin and no Isaan noses !!

[K2]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

.....It (Ed) is generally it is just better not to do business in Thailand (or at least phuket) if at all possible. Generally not worth the risk.

Sums up my 10 years of experiences here - with this case hard to be sure if was his German or Thai partner(s) stuffing him but what ever - his medium term plans are screwed - not what you want in your 50's and already had medical issues.

Doing business in Thailand is akin to investing in high risk illiquid stocks - sometimes the pay out will be huge but chances greater than will walk away with nothing (or less). Never again will I bother doing business here.

[Mr Lucky]

Originally Posted by ATMwalking

As you said they were likely "nominess". No mention of true thai partners. The Chanote could have been held under a company before the recent crackdown. So the 6 thia partners very well could just be 6 random thais off the street.

You must be aware that the recent crackdown regarded this very situation. The Thai partners are supposed to have majority vote and not simply be nominees. I predict we will see more and more of this. All it takes is a shrewd lawyer to whisper in their ears that legally, they're supposed to be calling the shots. Especially since many are 'just random Thais off the street' - they can go from poor to rich without any real effort by eliminating the farang partner.

I've seen plenty of farang screw farang. Often fellow countrymen. The only partner mentioned is a fellow German. It was his partner that called him to the site. The german partner now has control of the project. The german partner is the only one that seems to be benefiting.

You are right. Farang screw farang often enough. However, who has more to gain? An investment partner or a nominee who has invested no capital at all, but can suddenly step in to the owner's shoes?

Where does a thai fit into the equation? Oh it is invented.

Not invented. Just not mentioned. News reporters don't always get the whole story (and even when they do, they can't always write it).

Why can't you accept that a farang is just screwing another farang?

I can accept it. It wouldn't even be a surprise. I'm just saying my money is on the Thais. I doubt that the German partner is chummy enough with immigration officials to lay out this sting.

Whoever engineered this though, the frightening thing is the fact that, if a foreign shareholder goes out to one of his companies assets and points at something, he's breaking the law and can be kicked out of the country. This guy was just telling them where to lay some pipes. How many of us have done that in the homes we've built in Thailand?

[ATMwalking]

Originally Posted by Mr Lucky

You must be aware that the recent crackdown regarded this very situation. The Thai partners are supposed to have majority vote and not simply be nominees. I predict we will see more and more of this. All it takes is a shrewd lawyer to whisper in their ears that legally, they're supposed to be calling the shots. Especially since many are 'just random Thais off the street' - they can go from poor to rich without any real effort by eliminating the farang partner.

If you are forming a new company (less than a year), they are stricter about the financial background of the Thai shareholders when a farang is involved. For existing companies, nothing has changed. The new FBA is not yet law.

What you are describing isn't legally possible.

Originally Posted by Mr Lucky

You are right. Farang screw farang often enough. However, who has more to gain? An investment partner or a nominee who has invested no capital at all, but can suddenly step in to the owner's shoes?

Any mom and pop shop doing thai company set-ups give you a form that all the thai sharholders sign. That form gives you proxy voting rights for the thai shares. Unless they sue you, they can't take that back. This give the farang effective control. Also the thai shareholders are not required to be directors. That means they have no signing authority for the company. That means the farang has complete control. If you want to get fancy, you can get into special classes of shares and so on...

Have you done anything involving a company?

Originally Posted by Mr Lucky