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#1
05-10-2005, 04:47
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My 6 year involvement with HIV treatment / 7 year visits to Patong
I am fairly new to these forums in terms of voicing my opinion but i do read them on a regular basis, however i think you need to give eurogirl a break - after all she is only spending time offering her advice about HIV strains, for the benefit of the people who visit these forums.
I have been connected with the treatment of HIV for the past 6 years and have been going to Phuket for about the last 7. I, like all of you have had significant experience around the bars of patong so i may be more qualified than most to discuss this topic. First of all, i have read a number of discussion threads that hover around the HIV / STI issue, but most of you seem either naive or (sadly) ignorant - you simply want to discuss the things you enjoy or dont offer a threat to your pleasures - which is understandable. However your decisions in life should be based on the things you know, rather than what you dont. It is upto you to determine whether the benefits of unprotected sex out weigh the risks that are involved. I cant begin to tell you how devastating this horrendous virus is - but it's your decision nevertheless. HIV types, groups and sub-types have a place in this thread but they are not what i want to talk about. instead read: http://www.avert.org/hivtypes.htm In a nutshell: The biggest problem with HIV is the way that it operates when inside the body. There are sub-sets of cells in the body that manage the immune system and oversee the production of cells - guess which part HIV targets? Unfortunately, when the virus is working in the body, it changes between cells and takes on a new form - and this is why there is such a problem in finding a vaccine or a cure for the virus. It is only possible to slow down the process at which it occurs using drugs (at strict times) and taking care of yourself, eating sensibly, exercise, not drinking too much, etc, etc - these are key in the success of any drug treatment. Effectively, for anybody who has HIV present in their body, their body will contain millions of different virus' which are collectively referred to as HIV. Now interestingly, HIV constantly changes within the body and when the virus is passed onto somebody else, that person takes on the form of the virus at the point that it was passed on. Most of you will probably know that HIV is not what kills you - either AIDS does or one or many opportunistic infections that are caused by HIV such as Karposi's Sarcoma (Cancer), Hepatitis, Herpes, Thrush, Crypticoccal Meningitis, Malabsorption, Molluscum Contagiosum (like smallpox), toxoplasmosis (brain disease) amongst many others. Take a look: http://www.avert.org/aidscare.htm So, for all of you that think that drugs can keep you alive and well for 20-25 years, consider that the person who had the virus had not been taking their drug therapies properly when they should have been. Consequently they have built up resistance to that particular therapy program which potentially puts you at a disadvantage when you come to receive treatment. This is the reason why the drugs that are available on the market currently, will not work in the future. There has not been a major break-through in HIV drug therapy for over 10 years - drug companies have been tweaking their drugs and combining them in order to get better results since then, and there is very little in the pipeline. One of the leading HIV pharma companies has just had a 'new type of technology' rejected by the fda. Therefore we are still using the likes of AZT, FTC, 3TC ddl, TDF that are considered to be old in todays scheme of things. Worried - you should be! Finally, if you have read all the information i have given you and still decide that you cant be ars*d using a condom when your on your way back to a hotel room with your conquest for the night - spare a thought for the girl, who in actual fact, YOU maybe infecting. Thailand now has the fastest growing HIV community in the world - its time people took responsibility for their actions! If you want some more info on HIV / Aids www.aidsmap.com, www.avert.org are highly respected within the industry. Below are some peoples personal stories: http://www.avert.org/womstory.htm http://www.avert.org/manstory.htm 
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#2
05-10-2005, 06:18
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Quote from the 'avert' website The area in Africa south of the Sahara desert, Sub-Saharan Africa, is by far the worst-affected in the world by the AIDS epidemic. The region has just over 10% of the world's population, but is home to over 60% of all people living with HIV. An estimated 3.1 million adults and children became infected with HIV during the year 2004. This brought the total number of people living with HIV/AIDS in the region to 25.4 million by the end of the year Please, Phoenix, don't come here and preach, and don't bullsh1t. I agree with your message but take great exception to you assuming that we will fall for that old 'Thailand has blah blah blah' crap. You might be able to prove your facts correct but I doubt it, and so does your own website. You are entitled to your opinion, and you may or may not be entitled to the moral high ground, but you are certainly not entitled to come here and twist facts or statistics to suit your personal agenda. If you have something to say then feel free, but if you wish to dress up your opinion as 'fact' then you need some substance to it or I, and I suspect many others, will point it up for the pious opinionated bollox that it is. Or maybe I am wrong?
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#3
05-10-2005, 06:28
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From the unaids website
2004
Country Situation Analysis Thailand has demonstrated the success possible in addressing HIV and AIDS when a well-resourced and politically-supported response to the AIDS epidemic is coupled with a broad partnership of public, private and civil society actors using innovative, practical interventions to address HIV risks and vulnerabilities. As the Thai HIV epidemic matures, the future challenge for all partners in Thailand will be to continue to develop appropriate, innovative responses.
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#4
05-10-2005, 06:30
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Same website
Country HIV and AIDS estimates, end 2003
Adult (15-49) HIV prevalence rate <1.5% (range: 0.8%-2.8%)
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#5
05-10-2005, 11:59
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Geez there are some people around here who are in total denial about the risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. The fact that sub-Saharan Africa PRESENTLY have the highest number of infected people in the world DOES NOT preclude Thailand from having the fastest growing rate of infection in the world.
The bottom line for me is: 1. HIV exists and is proven to be transmitted by sexual contact 2. Thailand is a destination for sex tourism and sexual contact between multiple partners will happen more frequently 3. Contact rates are about 1 in 30 to 1 in 50 That says to me that if you have sex with 50 partners without some protection then you are statistically likely to become infected. The trouble is it could be the first partner or the fiftieth. How would you know? I've been to plenty of the bars around Patong and seen the "quality" of some of the girls and customers. I've also been suckered twice whilst drunk into having sex with a girl without a condom and know how easy this can happen. When I think that my old boy could have shared juices with some of the other customers around the place I shudder. Thanks to Pheonix and eurogirlinthai for the information. Twist it and manipulate it all you like, I'd rather die many other ways than from my d*ck dropping off.
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#6
05-10-2005, 12:17
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Its less denial and more accurate reporting of the facts as they stand.. How do you not see data like 'an estimated 3.1 million people became infected' in sub saharan africa in one year and then say that Thailand still has the fastest growing infection rate ???
Also whats never mentioned is that female to male transmission ratios are much much lower than the other way around.. I know an old expat who has beeen here all through the late 80's till now when Thailand was having a massive infection spike.. He never has used them and estimated (without boasting) at least 800 or more girls.. Infection free and so what are the odds.. Thinking about it I have known or heard of a fair few women infected (both in Europe and in thailand) and have yet to meet or hear of any infected guys, that even includes husbands and long term partners of those infected women.. I always wear rubbers for sex with strangers mostly to protect my girl.. Personally I am a bit of a fatalist and death doesnt actually concern me much.. Either way just use a rubber and your safe.. Not really an issue then is it..
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#7
05-10-2005, 12:38
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BTW if anyone ever feels the need to donate or has a venture looking for charity and support.. Father Giovani at the Camillion center in Pattaya is providing an amazing service for HIV infected children and HIV orphans as well as girls in the later stages of illness, plus a whole support network for medicines, hospice care, even getting cremations and Bhuddist services was initially difficult..
A real working saint so I am told..
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#8
05-10-2005, 12:41
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Thaivisa thread Dying Girlfriend (Aoms Story)
http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=44144 Camillian Center http://www.camillianrayong.8k.com/ The Jai Dee appeal http://www.bahtbus.com/csc/ remeber theres little to no state medical here. 
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#9
05-10-2005, 12:48
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Ummmm... quite easily actually. If sub-Saharan Africa has a population of say 1 billion people and a further 3.1 million people became infected in 2004, then there would be a percentage increase infection rate of around 0.0031%. If Thailand, with a population of 60,000,000 had 250,000 new cases per year this would be a percentage infection rate of 0.0042667. So whilst one region has actual higher numbers another region can have a higher per capita rate of infection. On this basis, if you were to go to say, China, pop. 1 billion +, where there is hypothetically an infection rate of 10% meaning that of any one of the 500,000,000 possible women you could be with you have a 10% chance of exposure to the virus. That also means that 450,000,000 women don't expose you to that risk. Now say you were in Nauru, population 10,000, where there is hypothetically a 50% infection rate, this now means that you risk a 1 in 2 chance of exposure if you have sex. Both numbers are imortant for different reasons. Yes, there are more cases of infection in Africa and that is a problem for health authorities dealing with the epidemic. Having unprotected sex in Thailand may put you at a higher statistical odds of exposure. Personally I'm not that worried about it either that I change my behaviour other than to wear a condom and if I'm with someone LT, to get the test done. It's good peace of mind. Also, it's not the dying for me either. It's the fact that if I was to contract HIV, it would mean that I couldn't spray my man juice anywhere other than into my hand for the last years of my life. There are worse things than death. I think there's more to be concerned about with bird flu but how do you get chickens to wear condoms? 
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#10
05-10-2005, 12:57
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So if a town has 1 person infected and another person gets infected thats a 100% infection rise.. Thats uising statistics to the point of ubsurdity..
Thailand has actually had a slowdown of infection rates since the times of the mid to late 90's.. There is concern that this may again be on the rise but the fastest growing infection rate in the world.. OK show me the data ?? To emphasize my point with data Quote:
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#11
05-10-2005, 13:02
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That data is a little old (2002).. The Govenerment data for 2004 says 19,000 new infections.. Even Thailands 'Mr Condom' who says the figure may be low only estimates a max infect rate of 25,000 for 2004..
So thats about a 33% to 25% fall in new infections since 2002.. 1991 had 143,000 new infections.. The current infection rate is approx 12% of what it was in 1991.. See this is why people who dont present actual data from credible sources p1ss me off.. I dont say this isnt real.. I dont say its not a terrible thing.. But dont give me false data and 'bloke in a pub said' type information.. Real data.. Real sources.. Otherwise you are just spouting false information. I await your data on Thailand...
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich. Last edited by LivinLOS : 05-10-2005 at 13:41.
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#12
05-10-2005, 13:08
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Here we go again....
 How many treads have been started about this? Too many. We all know here what the risks are. We are visiting prostitutes and except me, not virgins!  We have discussed many times what the odds of getting HiV are and also the ways to catch it! There are many sad stories....... But this board, is also habout having fun in Thailand! Every responsable person here WILL put the hat on. And some drunk bastards will not! Catching HiV is something strange. When I see the many people on this board, having relations with bg's, I never saw anybody admitting they catch it! But do not be too optimistic either! The infection, goes easier from a men to women indeed, because the sperm, where the concentration is high , finds his way everywhere, but women do carry this disease and will spread it! Anyway, as we all know the risk of the game, and me certainly as a father of 3, we just have to be a bit carefull, put the hat on, and have fun before we are in the grave, not by catching HiV, but being killed on a bike in Phuket!
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#13
05-10-2005, 13:28
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You'll be waiting a while because I couldn't be a*sed arguing about it any more. Do what you like mate. It's your life, you're a grown man and you live in the joint. You're better placed to make an assessment than me. Quote:
No, that's YOU using statistics to the point of absurdity. I was trying to answer your point about infection numbers vs infection rates. If we take your argument exclusively, i.e. purely on numbers of infections, that would mean that a country with a smaller relative population could be seen as having no HIV problem yet 75% of it's people might be infected. That's just as ridiculous as the two person town analogy. Both statistics need to be looked at as with others like method of infection etc. Anyway, I'm bored with this. I'm HIV negative and plan to stay that way. Put your c*ck where you like. BTW, that was a really good story you linked up to about Aom. That's just a great read from a human point of view.
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#14
05-10-2005, 13:38
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Of course thats me using them to the point of absurdity.. That was my point.. stats mean nothing without context.. I then provided you with many.. One showing a near 10 fold decrease in new infections.. Quote:
So it was bloke down the pub staistics again was it.. THATS what pi55es me off !!! I am always up for reasonable dabate on the subject but lets keep it at least factual.. Gueswork and scaremongering does no one any good in the control of this disease.. You have to remember NGO's get funded on reports.. Alarmist reports get more money.. That money is not direct at the actual problem solving like the carillion center but used to keep more and more beaurocrats and bean counters employed.. And yes Aoms story is a heartbreak..
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Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#15
05-10-2005, 14:12
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With a face like that you are not likely to catch HIV or put your coc* anywhere!  Kidding man, proberly is not your face at all, and if it is.....Mai pen Rai, but you WILL need many bath!
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#16
05-10-2005, 15:02
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[quote=LivinLOS]
So it was bloke down the pub staistics again was it.. THATS what pi55es me off !!! I am always up for reasonable dabate on the subject but lets keep it at least factual.. Gueswork and scaremongering does no one any good in the control of this disease.. QUOTE] Now, let me re-cap here....where are we up to with this? 1. I suggested that some people were taking a head in the sand approach to Phoenix's and eurogirlinthai's posts. 2. I made the point that Patong is a sex tourism destination and that contact rates are thought to be between 1 in 30 and 1 in 50 according to data I have read. True, I didn't verify the data. 3. You then asked how there can be a discrepancy between numbers of infections and rates of infection. I answered by giving an example. 4. You then posted data that shows that infection rates are declining in Thailand. I don't dispute your data. I'm really happy there were ONLY 19,000 - 25,000 new infections in 2004. That's so much better than the 29,000 from 2002. I'm relieved. And to top off the good news, there are also only say, 600,000 people with the disease. Again, I'm so relieved. That's only 1 in 100 of the total Thai population. Could it be that sex workers would have higher rates of infection, say 1 in 75 or 1 in 50? Maybe. I should also point out that your data does not mean that Thailand cannot conceivably have the highest infection rate in the world. Just because it's infection rate drops from one year to the next relative to itself, does not mean that it's infection rate can't be the highest relative to others. Using extreme statistics again, if every sexual act resulted in an infection in 2003, yet dropped so only every second act resulted in HIV in 2004, you could argue that (a) HIV infection rates had halved and also (b) that HIV infection rates were still 500 times the world average. But anyway... Also, I'd assume those statistics would not take into account farang who present with symptoms in their own countries. Do you know perhaps that if say an Australian man presents in Australia with HIV, Australian authorities will advise the country where he picked up the disease so they can add that person to their statistics as well. Phrased another way, if someone picks up HIV in Thailand and is diagnosed in his own country, who adds another patient to their list. Thai or farang government? Exactly. So one infected woman in Thailand could possibly infect multiple partners from elsewhere and this data will not show up in the local statistics. Again put another way, it could well be that maybe 40,000 people get infected each year in Thailand but only 20,000 get reported in Thailand's statistics. Yep, you may be right, mine might be just an argument based on doomsday and scaremongering hearsay from drunks in bars. It might not be too!! Funny though, Australia has one of the lowest rates of HIV infection in the world despite having a huge gay population in Sydney, (and not just per-capita but actual numbers of gay people), and average drug injection rates. The reason? A withering advertising campaign based on fear and ignorance way back in the 80's. Then the gay community got complacent in the mid 90s and the infection rates spiked a bit. More scaremongering and things settled back down again. So scaremongering and shock tactics have been proven to work. My point only ever was that to shove your head in the sand about HIV is stupid. Putting your uncovered c*ck into ******s anywhere in the world is fraught with danger. To do so in the world's predominant sex tourism destination is playing russian roullette. I'll put in a disclaimer here and say this is only IMHO and is not backed up with any specific facts, just based on a hunch and feeling I get from talking with my mates at the bar and from what I can observe with my own two peepers. 
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#17
05-10-2005, 15:02
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[quote=LivinLOS]
So it was bloke down the pub staistics again was it.. THATS what pi55es me off !!! I am always up for reasonable dabate on the subject but lets keep it at least factual.. Gueswork and scaremongering does no one any good in the control of this disease.. QUOTE] Now, let me re-cap here....where are we up to with this? 1. I suggested that some people were taking a head in the sand approach to Phoenix's and eurogirlinthai's posts. 2. I made the point that Patong is a sex tourism destination and that contact rates are thought to be between 1 in 30 and 1 in 50 according to data I have read. True, I didn't verify the data. 3. You then asked how there can be a discrepancy between numbers of infections and rates of infection. I answered by giving an example. 4. You then posted data that shows that infection rates are declining in Thailand. I don't dispute your data. I'm really happy there were ONLY 19,000 - 25,000 new infections in 2004. That's so much better than the 29,000 from 2002. I'm relieved. And to top off the good news, there are also only say, 600,000 people with the disease. Again, I'm so relieved. That's only 1 in 100 of the total Thai population. Could it be that sex workers would have higher rates of infection, say 1 in 75 or 1 in 50? Maybe. I should also point out that your data does not mean that Thailand cannot conceivably have the highest infection rate in the world. Just because it's infection rate drops from one year to the next relative to itself, does not mean that it's infection rate can't be the highest relative to others. Using extreme statistics again, if every sexual act resulted in an infection in 2003, yet dropped so only every second act resulted in HIV in 2004, you could argue that (a) HIV infection rates had halved and also (b) that HIV infection rates were still 500 times the world average. But anyway... Also, I'd assume those statistics would not take into account farang who present with symptoms in their own countries. Do you know perhaps that if say an Australian man presents in Australia with HIV, Australian authorities will advise the country where he picked up the disease so they can add that person to their statistics as well. Phrased another way, if someone picks up HIV in Thailand and is diagnosed in his own country, who adds another patient to their list. Thai or farang government? Exactly. So one infected woman in Thailand could possibly infect multiple partners from elsewhere and this data will not show up in the local statistics. Again put another way, it could well be that maybe 40,000 people get infected each year in Thailand but only 20,000 get reported in Thailand's statistics. Yep, you may be right, mine might be just an argument based on doomsday and scaremongering hearsay from drunks in bars. It might not be too!! Funny though, Australia has one of the lowest rates of HIV infection in the world despite having a huge gay population in Sydney, (and not just per-capita but actual numbers of gay people), and average drug injection rates. The reason? A withering advertising campaign based on fear and ignorance way back in the 80's. Then the gay community got complacent in the mid 90s and the infection rates spiked a bit. More scaremongering and things settled back down again. So scaremongering and shock tactics have been proven to work. My point only ever was that to shove your head in the sand about HIV is stupid. Putting your uncovered c*ck into ******s anywhere in the world is fraught with danger. To do so in the world's predominant sex tourism destination is playing russian roullette. I'll put in a disclaimer here and say this is only IMHO and is not backed up with any specific facts, just based on a hunch and feeling I get from talking with my mates at the bar and from what I can observe with my own two peepers.
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#18
05-10-2005, 15:15
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I am sure that your intentions are good!
But what does it matter what the statics are? Like I said before in this post, anybody with a little bit with common sense will put a cover over their dic*. If you go with a woman, with so much different interactions, you know you are in danger anywhere in the world. This is not about statitics, but just common sense.This rotten disease is around, you do not 1000 women to infect you, one is enough!
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#19
05-10-2005, 15:28
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As it was my reply that got you started, I won't let this slide without a response. The same thing that vexed me clearly vexed LivinLos as well, the use of data\stats twisted to fit is childish bollox. I am not in denial about anything, I don't do unprotected sex, but I resent being preached to and having my intelligence (such as it may be) insulted.
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Last edited by steve@thaib : 05-10-2005 at 15:38.
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#20
05-10-2005, 15:34
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