The Faith of Football Teams in Small Countries

[Nanook]

In the recent days a few good players in Holland were sold by their Dutch Teams to foreign teams. A few examples:

• Ryan Babel from Ajax Amsterdam to Liverpool for about € 17.5 mio.
• Wesley Sneijder from Ajax Amsterdam to Real Madrid for about € 27 mio.
• Royston Drenthe from Feijenoord Rotterdam to Real Madrid for about € 13 mio.

They couldn't be kept due to the money involved.

In principle I find it very bad, because most of the times, the Dutch teams have a very good youth system, which educates talented players until the ranks of the pro teams. Then after about 2-3 years the are picked up by the rich foreign teams. E.g. Manchester United, Chelsea, Real Madrid, Barcelona or AC Milan, etc, etc.

It is also bad, because IMHO the transfer dealine ends only at the end of August. This should be until the end of July. It must be very frustrating for the coaches who are building a team in the pre-season period and once the important games are on the schedule, they can start all over again, because their better players are being bought by the rich clubs.
In most countries they leagues have already started and some teams have to play qualifications games for various European cups, like the Champions League.
Look at the players in my example. Sneijder and Babel both gone and tomorrow Ajax plays their first match to qualify for the CL. Now they have to do it without a couple of key-players.

Moreover, quite a few of those youngsters are being traded by so-called personal managers who fill their pockets big time when they complete a transfer. Very often a young player ends up on the bench, because his new team has loads of other good players available.

Last but not least, it is bad for the teams like Ajax or Feijenoord inmy example, because it is known to other clubs that they have a lot of money to spend, and these teams ask exhorbitant amounts for players not really worth it.

Here in Holland, being a small country, the teams have only a small share of TV rights income. Our commercial market is so much smaller and teams cannot pay the super salaries like the teams in England, Spain or Italy can afford. Some teams in our first league have a season budget of less than € 10 mio.

I give Holland as an example, because I live here, follow football closely and I think we have an above average number of real good players abroad. But you can say the same about the Scandinavian countries for example.

A solution in my opinion could be as follows:

1. Reduce the total number of foreign players per team to 6 or 7, of which a maximum of 5 may be on the pitch at any given moment.
2. Introduce salary maximums. I think this is already a common thing in most North American sports. I don't know exactly how it works, but maybe some US BM's know more about that.

In the end it will also be better for the national teams, especially those like England or Spain, where they now suffer, because key positions on the teams are taken by foreigners.

I am curious to learn how other BM's look at this matter.

[Nautilus]

"Reduce the total number of foreign players per team to 6 or 7, of which a maximum of 5 may be on the pitch at any given moment"


This should have been done long long long long time ago. Benefits the national team also.

Which team in the EPL has the most English players?

[Nicke]

Same for Swedish Ice hockey players, all the good ones go to NHL where they earn the big bucks, Swedish teams cant compete with that.

I do however think National leagues should be just national leagues, and just allow e.g. max 3 foreign players in a team.

I dont know. English football is huge compared to other countries and more like an international super league, maybe best keep it that way so the good players actually can make some money.

[Nanook]

Originally Posted by snorter

Nanook, I read your post and that's what promted me to post this League, just wasn't sure which thread to post on.
I agree with your sentiments about losing your best Dutch players abroad. A few years ago it was England that were losing their best to Italy and Spain.
There's also a school of thought that says having so many foriegn players is bad for your home grown talent...........I prescribe to the opposing belief that it raises the standard of football and can only be good for your young local footballers.

As mentioned, I would post my further view based on Snorter's post here.

Sure, some sentiment plays a part with me to start this thread. I am a real Ajax fan since my childhood. I start to be an Ajax fan when I saw Johan Cruijff play a game on tv when he was only 16 years old. It was also one of the first domestic games live on Dutch tv.
Hence, I regret to see good Ajax players leav all the time. I can easily list at least 20 players from the Ajax school who have recently made their marks in international top football.

Of course it is good for players to be able to perform on the highest level. In my view, there is no doubt that the Premier League is the strongest European league at present.

Holland (and the same for other small countries) is losing our best players to foreign leagues since the rise of Dutch football in the late 60-ies early 70-ies. This is an unstoppable thing. But is it good?

But what is better for a good player? Playing every week on a good level in your home league or sitting on the bench in the top leagues of England or Spain? It is difficult to answer.

Also the loss of losing your good players means that they are substituted by your own youth (= good) or 2nd or 3rd class players from Africa or Eastern Europe (= not so good).

The fact that the big leagues take the good foreign players and the lesser leagues take 2nd rank foreign players IMHO means that your own local kids have much less change to start a professional career.

I truly believe that English and Spanish football will pay the price or maybe even are paying the price already with the performances of their National Teams. I even fear for Holland for that matter.

As a football fan in general, I am just worried about this whole situation. But what can you do? Money rules... like in so many other issues!

[Dodger]

A few things that came immediately to mind reading your post,

The dutch league is not strong enough, by that I mean not enough good teams in your top league to give your best players the desire to improve and strengthen their game to compete for their place or to just do well. So do you not think it is better for the dutch national side that they seek tougher leagues and improve their game and experience.

Taking the same scenario, the best of the best english players will rise to the top and get a start in the top english sides, thereby also improving their game and improving the talent level required to suceed, thereby long term enhancing the national team.

If we had no foreign players, then lesser english players would be in the league competing every week, does this improve the national side???.

I can see your point and no one really knows long term, initially in England everyone felt the same as you, that our home grown talent would be overlooked for foriegn players, thereby weakening the national side. But if they are not good enough for the top flight sides they get a game with the lesser or lower league sides, or maybe get transferred to Holland? (just a joke)

The game is big business now, let the guys with talent follow trhe big bucks, its such a short career.

[MrDK]

Originally Posted by Dodger

The game is big business now, let the guys with talent follow trhe big bucks, its such a short career.

As I was the reading this thread I was formulating a lengthy reply; but you summed it up quite well. It is business and like so many other business ... let the free market powers prevail (as long as it is ethical, moral and do not violate the law).

[brit]

I'd add that it's not just about the money - the players want to do something big with their career and win trophies (particularly champions league). There's also the prestige factor of playing for a team like Real or Barca, really you can compare to many of industries - if you're a journalist working for a local newspaper of course you're going to want to move "up" to the Times, Washington Post, etc.

About rules on number of foreigners I have a vague idea actually for UEFA games teams used to have to field a certain number of homegrown players? I wonder when they scrapped that rule.

[Dodger]

In the UK we had (have) a rule about only being able to play 3 foriegn players in a side. Then with the formation of the EU, work was freely available to any member country between member countries, so players from EU countries were no longer classified as foreign players, hence the explosion of numbers in the premier league.

Is this rule still applicable to S.American players or non EU country players in the UK?

[dizbuster]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

"Reduce the total number of foreign players per team to 6 or 7, of which a maximum of 5 may be on the pitch at any given moment"


This should have been done long long long long time ago. Benefits the national team also.

Which team in the EPL has the most English players?

Derby County

[dizbuster]

Originally Posted by Dodger

...Taking the same scenario, the best of the best english players will rise to the top and get a start in the top english sides, thereby also improving their game and improving the talent level required to suceed, thereby long term enhancing the national team....

Unless they get squeezed out completely In the first weekend of the Premiership this season, only 3% of the players used, were English.

Arsenal just use England as a base to play football I reckon Now that Cole has gone to Chelski, there's no home grown player to pull on a Gooners shirt !

[Nanook]

Originally Posted by Dodger

In the UK we had (have) a rule about only being able to play 3 foriegn players in a side. Then with the formation of the EU, work was freely available to any member country between member countries, so players from EU countries were no longer classified as foreign players, hence the explosion of numbers in the premier league.

Is this rule still applicable to S.American players or non EU country players in the UK?

We had similar rules in Holland until the EU forbid these rules like you mentioned.
The rules for EU players are clear and is as you said. For any non-EU player, like South Americans or Africans, the rule is that they must have played a certain number official games for their National Team and have a certain salary, but I don't know the limit. There maybe some other conditions as well.

Sure Dodger, it has all to do with money, you are right. Our league is now probably no.7 in Europe.
Due to being a small country, not too much people and hence a smaller market, we cannot generate the big money. So the top players go. Sometimes we are lucky. Like in 1995 when Ajax won the CL and the World Cup for clubs or in 2003 when Feijenoord won the UEFA cup. At that time they had a very good group of players, but then the next season the players go. For example, look how many Dutch players Barcelona used to have a few years ago. Kluivert, Cocu, Reiziger, Zenden, Overmars, de Boer twins, Hesp, plus the coaching staff.

Because of this situation, Dutch teams and those from other smaller countries, will not have the best teams. This results of having a lower position on the UEFA ranking list and hence less places in the CL or UEFA cup. So eventually your local league will suffer too.

Just to make it clear, I use Holland as an example, but it can be aplilcable to any smaller European football nation.

[Nanook]

Originally Posted by Dodger

So do you not think it is better for the dutch national side that they seek tougher leagues and improve their game and experience.

Forgot to touch this line.

Yes I agree with you and I think the Dutch National Team has taken some advantages of our better players playing in the bigger leagues. Being no. 6 on the FIFA ranking it shows. The key players play against better oponents every week and consequently can improve their skills.

But it has disadvantages too. Because they play in the foreign leagues, you notice that they forget about the typical style of Dutch football, which has brough us success in the past.
For example, we always used to play 4-3-3 system with real wingers. Today you hardly see that anymore. All the bigger teams play 4-4-2, hence a different system.

[snorter]

Originally Posted by Nautilus

"Reduce the total number of foreign players per team to 6 or 7, of which a maximum of 5 may be on the pitch at any given moment"


This should have been done long long long long time ago. Benefits the national team also.

Which team in the EPL has the most English players?

From my post on the premier league thread:

I thought BM's might be interested in this table of 'Englishness' of clubs in the premiership. About a week ago I did a quick search of wikipedia and checked the number of English players against the squad size of each of the premiership clubs.

Please understand ‘Englishness’ does not necessarily equate to greatness because West Ham are top by a long way. Arsenal, to their shame, come last, relegated by December type last. Reading have an astonishing squad of 40 while Villa have half that, 20.

Here it is: Club: No of English/ No of squad members

West Ham: 20/33
Boro: 17/30
Spurs: 17/35
Derby: 16/28
Newcastle: 13/30
Wigan: 12/27
Villa: 10/20
Everton: 11/25
Reading: 15/40
Utd: 11/28
Chelsea: 10/27
CITY: 10/29
Liverpool: 10/32
Birmingham: 9/26
Sunderland: 9/27
Portsmouth: Fulham: 9/34
Bolton: 7/31
Blackburn: 7/33
Arsenal: 3/26.

P.S. Things may have changes in the past week.

[dizbuster]

I heard on the TV that Derby had the most English players in the first weekend's matches, perhaps West Ham need ship in a few more foreigners to start winning

[snorter]

Originally Posted by dizbuster

I heard on the TV that Derby had the most English players in the first weekend's matches, perhaps West Ham need ship in a few more foreigners to start winning

Your right Diz, I just heard the same, but I think it was English players in the team for the day. The stuff I posted is English Players in the whole squad.

[snorter]

Looking at the table of Englishness it appears that ideally you want about a third of your squad to be English. I think you'll notice that's the sort of ratio all the best teams have: United, Chelsea, Liverpool, City.........

[steve@thaib]

A couple of things spring to mind here, though I pretty much agree with Dodger's take on things overall and would just add:

1 When France won the World Cup, their domestic league was (still is) one of the weakest in Europe. The English Premier League is one of the strongest in the world, and yet the national team is pretty dire. Strength of domestic football does not neccessarily lead to national team success.

2 If you cap salaries, where does the money go? Whilst I don't argue for the obscene amounts of money that players demand these days, it does seem to me that the people who put bums on seats and actually generate the cash by providing the entertainment should get a proportional amount of the cash generated.

I would rather see players get rich than TV moguls or club chairmen.