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#1
03-02-2006, 01:23
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Outsiders
I came across a passage in this book: Ugly Americans, by Ben Mezrich. By the way, the book was suggested to me by LiL, and it is real a great page turner. It is set in Japan:
´.. no matter how long one of us has lived here, no matter how much we seem to have adopted ourselves, we´re outsiders, every one of us, completely ****ing outsiders.´ ´The ones who learn perfect Japanese and sleep on futons and eat noodles and rice every meal. They marry Japanese women and wear kimonos to bed. They pretend they belong. But they are the biggest ****ing joke, because to the Japanese, no matter how good they speak or how authentic they dress, they´re just gaijin, foreigners, like the rest of us. They are chasing something they can´t have.´ Replace Japanese with Thai, and gaijin with farang, and it really applies to the foreigners in Thailand. We are outsiders, and we will remain outsiders. At whatever level of acquaintance with Thailand you are – first time visitor, or visitor with more visits to LOS than memories, or resident – you will never become part of the society as our native Thai hosts are. That´s not necessarily a bad or a good thing, but it´s the reality we have to take into account. 
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#2
03-02-2006, 02:39
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seems to me
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Trouble is we farang don't MEAN anything to Thai's apart from in a fiscal/money sense. And maybe most farang in Thailand, who are male, only SEE 50% of the Thai population (and it ain't the men is it?). Integration by farang isn't high on the agenda, but being 'accepted' is. Neither 'side' can get past the stereotypes and we have fixed expectations of how the other 'side' will behave towards us. Which perpetuates the behaviours so nothing much changes.
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#3
03-02-2006, 20:40
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I noted reading that passage also..
I often read passages in something and think "ohh yeah that is worth a post" but the hassle of typing it up is just too much for me.. Theres absolutely loads of good talking points in the current financial thing I am reading (Empire of Debt).
__________________
Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#4
04-02-2006, 00:36
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Thats strange cos I never felt like an outsider in Japan, I felt quite comfortable actually. Its LOS where Im never sure of anything.
 DD
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"If it ain't slant I just can't"  DIE Bostonian Scum DIE 555555555555........ 
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#5
04-02-2006, 01:22
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Quote:
Both LOS and Japan for me. I've been turned away in Japan from several bars for being gaijin. No gaijin allowed was a common theme for me there. /shrug. Up to them if my yen wasn't good enough for them. Not that I'm of that school but could never get away with that in the states.
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#6
04-02-2006, 17:34
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Quote:
I think that´s what strikes most of us most: back at home, you can not get away with that. But then again, isn´t that one of the differences between back home and LOS/Japan/Korea. Someone said that we do not matter to them. I feel that is true. In the end, it is with or without us, they don´t care. The like our business, they like our movies, but they do not need us for maintaining their social structures. In fact, we do not fit in, and it does not make sense to them to make us fit it in. Don´t take me wrong here, I am not complaining. For me, to be and remain an outsider is a matter of fact that you need to live with. And in many of the posts on this forum, that´s the underlaying current.
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#7
04-02-2006, 19:57
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I had the "pleasure" of diving with a group From Japan. We all dove at the same time, shared some drinks together. But, when it came for them to share with the others, it was sorry, "Japaneese only". Kinda put me off, they were over looking at our pictures, why can't we look at theirs. 
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#8
04-02-2006, 20:13
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osmosis
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The reason for people being in a particular country underpins the attitude of the population towards the visitor. So in the West migrant workers from Asia came and filled the low pay jobs or skill shortage jobs (and may still get good money compared to their country) and in Thailand it's the opposite - people with, in the main, few skills Thailand needs but with money to spend/invest. Hence the perception of the walking ATM. It's an osmotic thing - cheap labour to the West/moneyed farang to the East.
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#9
04-02-2006, 21:43
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An interesting subject this one, but I think it would translate into just about any society.
I've sure noticed it here, England, since I brought a Thai girl here. We do welcome foreigners, but they will never 'fit' properly. I guess even people who were born here but look different, Asian or Caribbean say, are not really seen as 'English' by lots of people. It must be hard being in that sort of situation, not really belonging in one place or the other.
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#10
05-02-2006, 02:07
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interesting stuff......
i know a few people who get really annoyed that they are ttreated diff from the thais. I also know people seem to wanna be thai, even to the stage of wearing bhudda necklaces and shit. i've told them that they will never be treated exactly the same. Thailand hasnt had racial intergration for as long as we have, have they..... maybe it will change in years to come......I think you have gotta be very thick skinned to live there though, fair play to those who do. I was living in Bangkhae, Bangkok for a while with my ex and nearly every thai would literally stare at me when i was out n about.
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#11
05-02-2006, 04:37
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I've noticed it in Thailand myself. It kind of made me a little more aware of how 'foreigners' are treated at home, I guess you can live anywhere but you only have one 'home'.
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#12
05-02-2006, 04:57
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I'll never figure out why people strive to be something they're not. A society is about shared experiences and as an outsider coming in, you will never share those. Outwardly I look and sound like an American, but I'm not. I didn't learn the pledge of allegiance in school, my family doesn't live there. Although I can learn the history, I'm not part of it. You are what you are and you should be proud that you're different. That you have a heritage all your own.
Even stranger is that the majority of this forum is white male, the most privilaged race and sex that has ever walked the earth. There are billions of people who would change places with you at the drop of a hat. I can like Snoop Dog and respect him with out dressing and talking like him.
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SASKATCHEWAN ROUGHRIDERS - CELEBRATING MEDIOCRITY FOR 97 YEARS GO RIDERS!!!!!
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#13
05-02-2006, 18:30
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Quote:
People who strive to be something / someone they´re not are actors, poor actors in the wrong movie. I have seen that a few times, and it makes me think of that expression that the grass is greener in the neighbour´s backyard: as if what they currently are is not good enough. And it is even more sad when these wannabee´s are white male, the most privilaged race and sex that has ever walked the earth. But then again, who am I to judge. Maybe they genuinly feel that becoming different will add to the value of their life. However, my original point is that some societies are more open to ´new entries´ then others, and, in addition to that, some societies can be easier understood by white male then others. We look at these ´closed´ societies - Thai, Japanese, aso - through our own glasses. Even when we know we shouldn´t, we still sometimes do. I do
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#14
20-02-2006, 01:44
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If anybody thinks thailand is sometimes crazy you have to read this book. I don´t know if its available in english but its really amazing. Its written by a german who his living in japan since many years and well known in japan. The title of the book in German is "Darum nerven Japaner" engl. " Why Japanese sucks" subtitle : The insanity of the Japanese everyday life ! ISBN 3-8218-3594-X ! This is crazy stuff
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Never to old to make yourself a fool Especially in LOS
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#15
22-02-2006, 20:47
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The fact a farang wears a Buddhist symbol does not mean one is trying to be Thai...some farang are Buddhist...is it to fit in or appear Thai?....and then I wonder what is so wrong with trying to fit in? Personally I would rather see someone try and fit in the best way they can, making friends is one way of fitting into a society, participating in events those things have nothing to do with you if you keep treating yourself as a true outsider, is it not part of the progression of things to try and become a part of the society you live in. Maybe I'm missing something here, but if this book is trying to say you will never be considered one of xyz race then that I think is a obvious statement and the book would be for those that haven't figure out yet that you are what you are and there is no changing that, look up no sh1t Sherlock. I tend to think you need thick skin if your expecting to be treated like you would at home, or expect things to be done the way they are in your home country.
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J.K. Livin Heywood
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#16
22-02-2006, 21:17
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Well I agree and dissagree...
Yes I think we should be able and willing to integrate but you do see a lot of dumb expat farang walking round with gold chains and buddha amulets like a Thai madalion man.. I also tend to put them down in the wannabee category.. Being given a real (old) amulet is an honour.. I have a stone buddha in a silver case that I would like to carry but dont wear jewelry, I asked about could I keep it on my keys (good protection on the bike) but after thinking a bit my girl said putting the buddha in my pocket is not acceptable so it stays in a drawer..
__________________
Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#17
22-02-2006, 22:26
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Quote:
I agree lil, it all depends on context...I've been given a few rare pieces and I do wear them but not everyday, I don't go out at night wearing a chain for everyone to see, it is personal. I've been fortunate I suppose as my teachings have been to not flaunt what has been giving to me. I do understand who your talking about however and know the type.
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J.K. Livin Heywood
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#18
24-03-2006, 19:54
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How true
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This is sooooo true about the Japanese. I was married to one and even if you speak Japanese they treat you like a an amazing talking dog, you will always be an outsider. If you go to Japan try and fit in but....... just be your hairy assed self. You will get more respect for it 100% true.
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#19
24-03-2006, 20:41
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isnt it the same way round?
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maybe before pinting the finger on the Thais, I would say it is just the same way the other way round: count the number of true (male) Thai friends you have. Longtimers here will tell you, it is not possible to have real Thai friends (or very difficult), but I would ascertain that this is as much because the Thais do not want us as that we are not #really# wanting to be integrated. A very mutual thing!
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#20
24-03-2006, 22:02
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Quote:
Now just hang on a second, you have taken that quote completely out of context, read the whole post and I think you will find that Swiftdave was not pointing the finger at anyone but himself. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion, but please don't be twisting other people's words.
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#21
25-03-2006, 01:13
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Quote:
that brings up a point ive been stating, and by no means do i mean to offend anyone but it amazes me how many ex-pats have no desire to go back home i could be an ex-pat for 20 years and i will still have to go to boston 2-3 times a year. thats wher ei come from, that is a huge part of me
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#22
25-03-2006, 03:30
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Paul...another way to view the glass. Where I lay my head is home. Its funny each person is different about that, I had friends when I was working for the government and moving around a lot who would constantly be trying to either stay in touch at home or go back every chance they could...for me I just found it easier to go about my business, when time was to be had I wanted to go see something I hadn't instead of what I had. Again its one of those things, no right or wrong way about it.
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J.K. Livin Heywood
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