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#108
29-04-2008, 15:10
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Wow whats a matter with you Pad??? a really agressive response to a pretty sensible post. Waing is more complicated than handshaking and with its subtleties, does take a long time to fully understand and get correct, a bit like my total confusion as to why you feel so agressive towards Iko??? Remember, people outside of p4p area's actually wai and in different circumstances, I would think with your extensive travelling you would have seen this???
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today. 
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#109
29-04-2008, 15:21
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Would you agree if you changed this statement to 'British people do not care if you shake their hand or not, they can suss you out pretty quick too'. cos I cannot understand why you would write or think this about Thai people??? you obviously think it is not impolite or rude to ignore someones greeting to you, suppose it takes all sorts, but your a really nice, well mannered guy and I cannot believe you think this.
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today.
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#110
29-04-2008, 16:37
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Wai'ing is not like handshaking.. Handshaking is the same when done between 2 equals, or between the CEO and the cab driver, doesnt matter who instigates it etc. To not shake a hand proffered is dismissive.
Wai'ing is done as an emphasis of status (as is so much is such class structured Thailand) not wai'ing back a service person is not rudely dismissive, and to go wai'ing everyone that wais you, or to instigate wais to people in service roles, is NOT the system.
__________________
Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#111
29-04-2008, 18:15
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Wai'ing is done as an emphasis of status (as is so much is such class structured Thailand) Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Two "equal" friends wai each other; two cousins wai each other. No social status implied. to go wai'ing everyone that wais you, or to instigate wais to people in service roles, is NOT the system Nobody here ever said you have to wai service people, gas station guys or something like that. This would be really odd. IKO
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#112
29-04-2008, 18:35
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Okay, my understanding of this, a Thai will instigate a wai to the King, Royalty, a Monk and someone older than them. They will return a wai to other persons younger but not if they are in a service industry, a waiter, shop keeper etc.
So I agree you do not wai a service person, even if they wai you, this is okay, but you do wai back to a person younger than you, irrespective of status, outside of the service industry. So it is not the same as handshaking, but surely handshaking is as similar to a wai as we westerners can get? Now someone says they will not wai anyone, I think this is rude, (note I said anyone not everyone), not saying it is rude not to wai a waiter. Again not shaking a hand offered or not waing an older person, is similar in its dismissiveness, so again I think it is sort of similar to handshaking. Gee will sometimes wai back to a person who falls outside the normal categories I have detailed, but if she does, it is with very low hands and for a short period with no bowing or lowering of the head. So I responded to posts by Padmc because he said Thais could not care less whether you wai'd or not. I personally think they do care and the only example I could think of as a similarity, was if you ignored to shake hands with someone. If you feel handshaking is not similar in any event then consider the same sentance with ignoring someones greeting and tell me they wouldn't care less, again I think they would. Heck Lil, I have already said, and believe you have a better grasp on this than me and that I still have more to learn about many things Thai but this subject especially. But i still think if a person ignores all wai's from Thai's, that they will care less. And why is good old Pad getting so agressive about this to Iko?? that was my other point.
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If I havn't done it already, then i'm gunna do it today.
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#113
29-04-2008, 19:00
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I think IKO made a great point when he observed that waiing someone of lower status "accidently" with more respect, but in front of other Thai with higher status that one could have given a lesser wai in the past, could be insulting to that higher status person....
Quiz: Who gets the more respected wai? A millionairre business man pedalling fly spray, or a Phd professor teaching Socialogy at Thammasat Uni? Also, if it is a girl doing the wai, does she do a curtsey as well? Who, first? My position on this topic is in the earlier parts of the thread... although a little altered now in my mind one year later. I think Pablo hit the nail on the head in a post somewhere up in this thread, although I would have added a wai attempt with monks and dignitaries as well. Special occasions and special situations only. In everyday life, as a farang, I'm not gonna wai anybody, just acknowledge their custom, politely.. and forget about all this non-sense status, culture, superiority, inferiority, class agenda that I think is WAY outdated.... Last edited by TanMan : 29-04-2008 at 19:03.
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#114
29-04-2008, 19:03
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Other than just using the Western "analog" to the wai would it be fair to say that is also analog to simple greeting.
When I enter a restaurant, for example, here in the US I will generally be greeted by a host, often enthusiatically. I wouldn't return that greeting in any similar way, if at all. On the other hand when if I am invited to a coworkers house for dinner and get a like greeting, it will surely be replied to in kind.
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#115
29-04-2008, 19:06
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#116
29-04-2008, 19:27
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That's right (should have made the quiz harder) in MOST circumstances, but who would have thought that way in general. Is money respect or is education respect. Or, the desire to improve social order through education. Is that something deserving of respect? I'll never know for sure nor do I really care... because, like I said, this class culture doesn't suit me.. people are people. In my head, all wais would be the same... all handshakes would be the same too.. Just be polite!
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#117
29-04-2008, 19:48
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Not sure I agree.. Would depend entirely on context..
Sure in an idealized utopian world the Teacher should hold more respect.. But in real Thailand when the teacher parks his Honda next to the millionaire Merc.. he would be out statused.. Theres a saying in Thailand along the lines of if you have money you can do no wrong.. Including not waiing at the right times 
__________________
Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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#118
29-04-2008, 21:40
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i guess that is my gripe with wai'ing i just dont like anything that sets a class level and status i know it is a different country, but i still think a rice farmer deserves the same greeting as a doctor just as a blue collar worker deserves the same greeting as any professional in any other part of the world. i will honestly never get, and to a further point, not want to get, the fact that a bg or any other lower class person shouldn't be wai'ed, which has been said on this forum by a few bm's. it is just something i dont want to be a part of associated with. i was raised to treat people all the same. now that may not hold true in Thailand and people may think i am "ignorant" for not knowing the system, but it is just something i believe in and it would be my same thoughts if my initial interaction with Thailand wasnt with a lower class area for me, part of what holds back Thailand as a country is their system of class structure and that certain people are stuck in what class they were born into Last edited by marc26 : 29-04-2008 at 21:43.
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#119
29-04-2008, 22:12
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Which level are you talking about? You're perspective is great on a cultural level, but at the same time YOU come off on the forum as having a HIGHER level than say... a newbie.... Maybe you do, but it is almost the exact same thing you are harping on about... isn't it?
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#120
29-04-2008, 22:23
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thats pretty funny that you say i am harping on something although you basically said the same exact thing as me in a few posts before so all you really are doing, as usual, is taking a personal shot at me it's tiresome and laughable
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#121
29-04-2008, 22:59
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I realize what I said. I realize what you said too.
I don't take personal shots at BM's unless they take one that is directed at me first. All I can make out of the situation here is that you were so against CLASS, but at the same time this whole Board supports the same... L1. L2 etc.... I am (AS A SENIOR ELITE MEMBER, WOW.. and I am not knocking it) the same as a newbie here to me, and he/she has the same right to post whatever he/she wants to. I. personally welcome all comments, although I have to step over a few many times. Sometimes, I get the feeling that some BM's get threatened when a newbie tries to make a point. It is almost as if a new BM is invading their turf... To me... that is laughable... I think I have made this point before so it is just time to stop now. Last edited by Denver : 30-04-2008 at 05:26.
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#122
29-04-2008, 23:18
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lets not ruin this thread going at each other i did not take any shots at you in this thread and there is a spirited discussion going on with a lot of BM's that i actually find pretty intersting, newbie or experienced BM, all are giving their opinions and giving back good replies
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#123
30-04-2008, 00:53
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OK... Apologies to IKO and the board for last nights drunken posts... They were made with Zero prior thought...
Padraig Last edited by Pad Mc : 30-04-2008 at 01:59.
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#124
30-04-2008, 03:07
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Nice one Padraig. Takes guts to do and very few do! Me included! 555555
__________________
The idea is to die young.........as late as possible. 
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#125
30-04-2008, 03:07
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I you was here Mac...I'd give you a great big WAI. 
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#126
30-04-2008, 04:25
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................No tongues please!!!! 
__________________
The idea is to die young.........as late as possible.
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#127
30-04-2008, 05:21
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I agree with you 100% here Paulie.. I hate these kind of class distinctions, I think we as westerners are trained to think that 'all men are created equal' etc.. Thailand is only 100 years from a feudal, agrarian society.. Where kings allocated favors to the land barons and the serfs did the work. All land was owned by the crown and patronage was the order of the day. Its still there in the Pu Yai / Pu Noi relationships and how Boon Khun and merit are the order of the day. Asia is stratified, you may not like it, you may not agree with it, but that is the asian cultural mindset. That is what creates the futility and mai pen rai of the rural poor, its a big part of how Thais are mentally / socially developed.
__________________
Men have only 2 emotional states, hungry and horny.. So ladies, if you see me without an erection, make me a sandwich.
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