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#1
12-09-2005, 15:11
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Grengjai
I was at Thai class today. After the usual lessons in grammar and conversation, the lovely Khun Pum took the last twenty minutes of class to give us a lesson in Thai culture/manners. What she said was quite incredible.
She explained the concept of "grengjai" or "grayngjai." What it means, IIUC, is that you are never to be an imposition on others. Therefore, you must never accept their hospitality without, at the very least, first making an effort to decline whatever you are offered. So, if you go to someone else's home, and they offer you a drink or something to eat, you must always refuse the offer. You say to them, "grengjai" which means no, I don't wish to be an imposition on you, or "grengjai jung leuii" which means "No, really, I really, really feel that it would be wrong of me to impose myself upon you to that extent." Now is where it gets really weird. If you say, in effect, "No I couldn't possibly, etc.", then that means that yes, of course, you would like what they offered you. If you really are serious and don't want something to eat(for example), then you can't ever say, "No, I don't want it." If you don't want it, then you have to say, "Oh, I just ate a big meal, couldn't possibly eat another bite." In other words, you can never say NO. If you want to say no, then you have to make up an excuse, so that it is not that you don't want it(you must want it, you have no choice), but it is that you are unable to accept, even though you really wish you were able to. You have to be a liar, manners demands it, adn it would be unspeakably rude and barbaric to just say what you really mean. This sort of mentality carries over to situations, such as, when you ask a BGl to go with you, and she says, "Oh, I can't. I' waiting for my BF," but no BF ever arrives, or "Oh, I can't! I'm feeling a bit ill." But then she leaves 20 minutes later with the next guy, who asks to BF her. Sometimes, I thought, these girls are such liars, why don't they just tell the truth. Now I don't feel quite so bad. They don't tell the truth, because they are unable to. It is prohibited in their culture!! They are just trying to be very proper and polite to you.  To us, the lying is just adding insult to injury, because they don't have enough repsect for you tp just say the truth, but would rather insult you by lying to you, instead of respectfully declining your offer. To them, to tell you the truth, would be unspeakably rude!  JayBee 
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LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown. 
Last edited by JayBee : 12-09-2005 at 15:25. 
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#2
13-09-2005, 11:49
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Hi Diz, To be quite honest, the subject of BGs did not come up in our classroom discussion of grengjai!  I think that the situation of dealing with a BG is not quite analagous to the situation where you are invited to someone's home or they invite you to a restaurant. The difference is that a BG in business for herself, as much as we sometimes like to fantasize otherwise. Even in LOS, if you walk into a 7/11 and want to buy something, they are not going to refuse the offer of your money. In a social situation, where someone offers you their hospitality, there is no exchange of funds and you are required to refuse the offer, at least initially, if you really do want what they are offering. With a BG, there is an implied understanding that she is going to receive some remuneration for going with you, therefore she has no obligation to decline your offer, in effect, because you are a customer. Where the similarity, or the carryover of Thai social custom, to the bar scene comes in is when she does not want to accept your offer. Then, since she is declining your business, you are not a customer. Then, it becomes more similar to a social situation, where she feels that she would be be very rude to tell you the truth(that she can't stand the sight of you ), and that the polite thing to do is to make up a lie, as an excuse for not going with you. I think this is especially true if you are a guy who frequents the bar she works at.Of course, a lot of them will take the middle road in that situation(taking the middle road is another Thai custom discussed in class). For a BG, the middle road seems to be to neither accept nor decline your offer, but rather to quote a high or very, very high price to you. That way it is you who must decide and they are relieved of having to decline. If you are crazy enough to accept their offer, then they can reconsider just how much they dislike you. If it is lot of money, you might suddenly look a lot more handsome to them. Or if they really, really did not want to go with you under any circumstances, then they can suddenly take ill after you have accepted their price, and still not go with you. As I think about it, although I am sure it happens, I can't think of any time when a BG turned me down outright, without either making up an excuse or naming a price I was unwilling to pay! Obviously, a different set of rules must apply in a disco, because I have watched FLs turn down over a dozen guys in an hour or two in the discos. But even there, they tend to avoid making eye contact with you or bad vibe you, if they are not interested, so you never really get a chance to ask them to go with you. If they smile and are friendly and talk with you, they usually will go with you, or make an excuse(on the rag, have BF in UK, too tired, have to get up early, have to find my GF, etc.). JayBee
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LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
Last edited by JayBee : 13-09-2005 at 12:04.
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#3
13-09-2005, 13:18
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this "grengjai" applies to most asian cultures, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, not just thai. you can call it politeness or hyprocritical. depends on your perspective.
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#4
13-09-2005, 15:30
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It is a little strange to the farang mind, because here if someone offers you something to drink or eat, then the polite thing to do is to accept the offer. If a person is particularly gregarious, then you might feel bad to turn down the offer, but making an excuse doesn't help much in that case. With most people, it is "up to you" and it is OK to turn it down, although more friendly to accept it. But you would never say no, if you really wanted to accept. Well, hardly ever. If it was someone you really didn't know that well and you really did feel that maybe it was an imposition, then you might say, "Oh, you really shouldn't..." or "Oh, I couldn't possibly put you to all that trouble," but certainly not over an offer of a beverage or a bite to eat. People don't normally do that though, as it is considered being overly polite, and, as such, a little suspect. If you are trying to be extra polite you might say, "OK, if it's not too much trouble for you..." Bu that would usually be only if you showed up unexpectedly, as they were sitting down to eat, and they said, "Have a seat. We can put out another plate for you." Then, you really are imposing, because if they cooked food for 3 people, and they invite you, then it means everyone gets a little less to eat!! All in all, in the West, politeness only goes so far. In other words, you can only bend the truth so far. There is such a thing as a little white lie, and it is a judgement call as to when to use it. But normally, you are expected to politely say what you really mean!
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LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
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#5
13-09-2005, 17:46
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It’s quite confusing to someone who wasn’t born into the culture and therefore is unaccustomed to the social etiquettes that are very often obligatory in societal situation.
One is expected to discern the particular situation from the other person’s perspective when an offer is presented to you, and to judge whether or not you should accept it without going over your status in relation to that person. If the relationship is not warranted then you should not accept it and allow the person to feel that he or she has fulfilled his or her role to be generous, and he or she would also be appreciative you for your consideration. There is really no right or wrong in this, albeit I personally think it’s a lot of hassle, but then there are pros and cons in every culture so I would not dismiss it entirely. And even though I was educated in the west, often times I would still instinctively, without thinking, gone back to the oriental way when dealing with people.
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#6
13-09-2005, 22:26
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I read of these things from time to time, and always think 'not in my experience' and scratch my head a bit thinking that maybe I have missed the point somewhere.
A coupe of things strike me: Firstly, when I was sat in the baking heat outside the tin shack that passes as the family home, when someone offered me a drink I took it. Maybe I did commit a terrible faux-pax, but it seems to me that those people were far more concerned with other things than my lack of manners. Social graces were never high on the agenda. Secondly, this concept of rigid manners and ways to behave has never shown itself to me anywhere in Thailand, though I am happy to concede that A: I am a low rent kind of guy so maybe I am swimming in the shallow end socially and\or B: I am an ignorant farang and missed the point completely. I do wonder though, if this is some sort of misty-eyed pastiche of the way Thailand used to be, or the way people wish it was? Maybe in the same way that people perceive the English to be tea drinking, bowler hat wearing ponces that all carry an umbrella and talk like the queen? I reckon that if I was sat out in the boonies when the beer came around and said 'no thanks', they would just share mine out and not ask again.
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#7
13-09-2005, 22:55
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steve@thaib, i see you point, and the fact that such customs are becoming more diluted amist the increasingly globalized culture is also true.
but i think most thais do not expect the foreigners to follow these customs, and furthermore, a cast system is still in place in most asian cultures, therefore perhaps only the educated, the well-to-do, and the elderlys are still clinging onto these traditions of formal manner. it's a way to show respect in the asian sense.
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#8
14-09-2005, 02:05
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I think that is exactly what I am getting at. Caste systems and social structures from a bygone age.
My question is, does it still exist and is it relevant to the way people live today?
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#9
14-09-2005, 02:13
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i think steve is right. i think it is an idealized way. how things use to be. just as in the west you would act accordingly to the situation your in.
so if you were at a black-tie affair, you would be alot more gracious than if you were in your local pub
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#10
14-09-2005, 11:08
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Good points, guys! I think that it is probably true that Thais cut us a lot of slack because they realize that we are dumb farangs and also because it is to their advantage to do so. As for these sort of social customs being something from a bygone age, I don't think that is the case. I think that young people when dealing with their circle of friends are pretty loose with the customs, but I doubt if they would be so loose when they visited the home of their friends' parents. Acoording to my teacher, observance of this customary way of responding to hospitality is an absolute must for Thais, unless you are dealing with good friends on a very informal basis. I think that the class system is very much alive and well in LOS. The whole structure of their language is based on which person in the conversation has a higher rank than the other person. That is also why they have different words for older brother, older sister, younger brother, younger sister, aunt who is older than your father, aunt who is younger than your father, so on and so forth, all the way up and down the line. There is no word that just means aunt or uncle. It is always considered who has the seniority!! There are many, many words in Thai, which when used, make an inference of which person speaking has the higher status. All monks have a status higher than other people, including the king. i think if you said something which was an insult to the royal family or a monk, that you would find out pretty fast that there still remains a social order, because in this regard, I don't think that they make exceptions, even for dumb farangs. There are similar words which are very specific for what the boss can call you, what you can call the boss, and what you call someone who is your peer. I don't mean words like boss, employee, or co-worker. I mean words like "little brother" or something like that(not that exactly, but I can't remember what it is). He will only use that term if he is your superior and he wants to show that he likes you, but you can't use the same word in return, because although you are friends, there is always the reminder that he ranks above you! If you think that these customs are from a bygone day, then I think that you don't understand Thai society. Among the BGs, things are a lot looser, because they share the same status, they are in the same boat. And in dealing with farangs, they get used to suspending normal social custom for our sake(and theirs). But I have found in dealing with TGs and with Filipina girls in the US(never been to PI), that they will almost always lie to you, with some silly excuse, rather than turn you down outright. Sometimes farang girls do the same, but most of the time they just tell you outright, I don't want to see you anymore, if that is their intention, rather than keep making up excuses why they can't see you, until you get tired of asking, and finally get the message. With the Filipina girls, I thought they are just a bunch of liars, but now I understand that, perhaps, it is their custom to lie in that kind of situation, which makes it a cultural difference, and not necessarily wrong for them to do that, because in their culture, maybe it is the proper or acceptable way to handle it. JayBee
__________________
LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
Last edited by JayBee : 14-09-2005 at 11:23.
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#11
14-09-2005, 21:58
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Good thread.
A question (probably daft, not been there yet) Isnt this all wrapped up in the "saving face" aspect of their culture? I'm sure I read somewhere that you shouldnt put a thai in the position of saying "No" and in turn, with a refusal by a BG for you to barfine her, using a lie, shes saving you and herself "face" in that situation?
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#12
15-09-2005, 03:06
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Hmm, not sure how to read that Jaybee. It seems to me, reading the whole thread, that these rules may apply more to a formal work situation, or maybe a big and formal family gathering. This could well explain why I have never, and will never, encounter this sort of thinking. It looks like anything which has a structure, or food chain, has these little social niceties that must be observed. I do understand it to an extent, the foot\head thing (the hair on the top of my head is lower than the soles of your feet) but I don't like it. Maybe I avoid it? I believe that I understand reasonably well the social structure in the places I have been. Had I made any serious social gaffes then I would have had them pointed out to me. I honestly do not believe that these rules apply in the boonies; they know how pretentious they would look by standing on ceremony and getting uptight because the guy who is paying the bill said 'hello' to the wrong person first. I do take the point; in certain circumstances there is a social order which must be followed. My point is this: in the circles I have moved, those social niceties are not relevant. I believe that there are far more regular folk in Thailand than there are movers and shakers. These are the people with whom I am comfortable. You can keep your 'hi-so' girls and the guys who will eat in 20baht noodle shops all month in order to drive a BMW. It's just not what I seek in people and, rightly or wrongly, it's not what I perceive as the real Thailand. 
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#13
15-09-2005, 03:36
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I guess it would be fair to say, that I know where you are coming from Jaybee, but it's not a place I am going soon.
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#14
15-09-2005, 03:40
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Not a daft question Paul; I think the two concepts are very close to each other and, whilst I don't like the 'face' thing (please don't prove me a liar because I will be embarassed) I do understand it. I never underestimate the power of the concept either; face is very, very important.
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#15
15-09-2005, 06:31
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Really, I think that we would need the input of a few Thai folks to get a clearer picture of the reality of contemporary LOS. I am going mostly by what my teacher said, and what I have heard from other Thais, but that is a very limited sample of people. Obviously, the farang is going to get different treatment. As you pointed out above, they aer not stupid, and seem to know better than to be rude to the farang who lays the golden egg. But as Paul pointed out, the concept of "face" is part of the same basic mentality. And as others who have lived in LOS for many years have said on this forum, you can live in LOS for a long time and still you will never fully understand the concept of face and how it affects them everyday in the way they relate to other Thais. You and I will probably never fully understand it. But does that mean it is a thing from bygone days. I don't think so. Not from what I have seen, and from what people say. JayBee
__________________
LOS is warm, soft, smooth, and brown.
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#16
15-09-2005, 06:57
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Not wishing to further complicate this, but theres 2 other factors not been touched upon yet, which may have some bearing.
Firstly, i'm under the impression that a majority of BG's originate out in the rural areas, where I would think the more traditional culture aspects, face, social standing, etiquette etc are probably very much in effect, which must cause a certain amount of internal conflict for the bg's when in the farang hotspots. Secondly, no mention of buddhism as yet that ive seen. Surely after something like 2500yrs, thats got a huge cultural influence even if subconciously, moreso than even our anglo-saxon christian "values" (most people have them even if not slightly religious) and theyve had nearly a 1000yr headstart i think. might be talking out me bum, but this threads got me thinking  Last edited by Crunch : 15-09-2005 at 14:54.
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#17
15-09-2005, 07:20
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Thanks for the heads up here everyone, I have been married to a TG for 13 years now and have never understood this aspect of their culter and ways. the explination you have given make sense and have cleared a few mysteries that I have had. Just goes to show that you never stop learning.
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#18
15-09-2005, 15:37
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I had an experience regarding Thai respect for royalty on my last visit.
I was having a tiff with my gf. whom I've known for 2 years. She took some baht notes out of her purse to give to me and I knocked them out of her hand onto the floor. Her reaction was the first time in 2 years that she has shown any anger or even annoyance with me. Later when we were discussing the incident she explained to me that I'd done a very bad thing by knocking a picture of the king to the ground and that she'd been really upset by it. She is very tolerant towards my lack of understanding of cultural issues and when I make a gaff concerning this will always wait until we are alone to explain to me. Concerning the face issue, she takes this very seriously and it affects everything she does. She always refers to the issue of her losing face as being "shy". By the way she is from the boonies down south and is relatively uneducated..
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#19
15-09-2005, 17:58
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Well, I would say that the traditional stuff that Jaybee is referring to is less relevant in these areas, which is why I have never had a problem in the places I have been. As I say, I'm a low-rent kind of a guy, the people I meet are fairly simple folk and maybe they cut us farang some slack, as has been mentioned, or maybe this sort of formality has little relevance in those parts of the country? Quote:
Not sure that religion belongs in this topic, though it certainly plays it's part in shaping their cultural values. Thais seem, to me, to be a very reverant (which is relevant) and superstitious people. We, clearly, are not and maybe it does puzzle them, but I don't think it causes them any real problems. An interesting thread to be sure, and I have seen some of the things that Jaybee refers to (the reverance which is shown to high up policemen was a real shock to me), all I'm saying really is that in day to day life I have never seen the social structure in action.
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#20
15-09-2005, 18:04
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I guess that for the most part we are pretty careful not to show any dis-respect; it goes with travelling to other countries\cultures and not wishing to offend. I did this one time as well and regretted it instantly, it's a trap for the unwary. I believe that we have laws in the UK about this (defacing images of royalty) but, like so many laws that we consider arcane, it's never enforced and nobody gives a rats ass if you burn money or drill holes in coins. Do it in Thailand and you could find yourself in some hot water.
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#21
15-09-2005, 20:26
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Would really love a thai view on this. I think you could well be right, but as you say, they may well not expect farangs to know any different and cut a fair bit of slack to any social gaffs
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